Pick one... weight or aero
12-13-16 | 12:46 PM
#26
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 6,861
Likes: 120
I've used models that account for acceleration, and investigated keeping a database of moments of inertia for different wheels to improve the estimates of drag and predictions of sprint performance that the models produce. After a medium amount of effort, we stopped bothering.
12-13-16 | 12:47 PM
#27
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 6,861
Likes: 120
I have heavy-ish aero wheels for TTing- front and rear 60 mm deep wheels and a rear disc. I'm all for buying free speed whenever possible. My fitter is a purist and does not like compromises.
Every now and then I try to get him to tell me to buy lighter wheels.
He tells me not to. Weight hardly matters as long as my wheels are not ridiculously heavy (which they're not).
However he does tell me he could get me into faster tires. (I resist, because I don't want tubes.)
The best way to test this stuff is going to be road aero testing. Which is coming, it will be the next thing in aero testing.
Of course I have wheels for climbing too. They are only lightish wheels because I prefer an alloy braking surface. No deep profile on my climbing wheels because I don't want to get hit by the crazy canyon crosswinds while on a high speed descent.
And of course if I was doing mass start races, I'd consider a set of wheels for that. Maybe full carbon but maybe not. There's an argument to be made for race wheels that aren't too expensive to replace, at least until you get to pretty advanced levels.
Hmm. Maybe the real answer is that there are pros and cons to different wheel types? And those pros and cons apply differently to each of us, based on whether we're riding recreationally vs racing, our weight, terrain, budget, and personal preferences? And that therefore it makes little difference to second guess or judge the other guys wheel choices? Cause maybe his decisions were made based on factors that are not immediately evident to you, looking at his situation from the outside?
Every now and then I try to get him to tell me to buy lighter wheels.
He tells me not to. Weight hardly matters as long as my wheels are not ridiculously heavy (which they're not).
However he does tell me he could get me into faster tires. (I resist, because I don't want tubes.)
The best way to test this stuff is going to be road aero testing. Which is coming, it will be the next thing in aero testing.
Of course I have wheels for climbing too. They are only lightish wheels because I prefer an alloy braking surface. No deep profile on my climbing wheels because I don't want to get hit by the crazy canyon crosswinds while on a high speed descent.
And of course if I was doing mass start races, I'd consider a set of wheels for that. Maybe full carbon but maybe not. There's an argument to be made for race wheels that aren't too expensive to replace, at least until you get to pretty advanced levels.
Hmm. Maybe the real answer is that there are pros and cons to different wheel types? And those pros and cons apply differently to each of us, based on whether we're riding recreationally vs racing, our weight, terrain, budget, and personal preferences? And that therefore it makes little difference to second guess or judge the other guys wheel choices? Cause maybe his decisions were made based on factors that are not immediately evident to you, looking at his situation from the outside?
12-13-16 | 12:51 PM
#28
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,278
Likes: 342
From: Alpharetta, GA
Bikes: Nashbar Road
I've used models that account for acceleration, and investigated keeping a database of moments of inertia for different wheels to improve the estimates of drag and predictions of sprint performance that the models produce. After a medium amount of effort, we stopped bothering.
Racers on the edge of blowing up, trying to hold the wheel inches in front of them, I'll take their word for it because I never do that. With a grain of salt - I'd take almost any measurable aero improvement over a couple of hundred grams.
12-13-16 | 01:26 PM
#29
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,017
Likes: 925
From: Nor Cal
The article says
"We've measured a 16% increase in wheel drag between a disc-braked wheelset and a standard wheelset", Jean-Paul told us. "We performed a direct back to back test of the Zipp 303FC in standard version and disc brake version, for our own competitor comparison purposes. That 16% is a constant offset in the performance curve across the entire cross wind angle range."
I find this pretty surprising. It looks like Zipp's 303 Disc is a different rim from their 303. I would expect most of the loss from the rotor to be made up for by a better rim shape.It would appear that they tested the wheels alone, with no bike-
with the bike (& brakes), the difference would be exactly twelvety-sevenths %.
Surprising, for sure.
12-14-16 | 09:46 AM
#30
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 880
Likes: 11
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Bikes: Trek Emonda SL6, Trek Madone 4.5, Trek X-Caliber
Been contemplating the move to Colorado actually... but when it's 80 degrees right now and I can ride all winter in a short sleeve jersey and bibs it's hard to give that up
12-14-16 | 11:04 AM
#32
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,962
Likes: 4
From: Colorado
Bikes: 2018 Canyon Aeroad CF SLX 9.0 2016 Bombtrack Arise Campy build cross bike 2005 Fuji Outland Pro
12-14-16 | 12:55 PM
#33
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 1
From: Lincoln Nebraska
Bikes: 99 Klein Quantum, 2012 Cannondale CAAD10 5, Specialized Tarmac Comp, Foundry Thresher, Fuji Sportif
My cheap Chinese carbon wheels (50mm and 1560 grams) picked up an average of about half a mile an hour. Pretty substantial, but tires made a bigger difference.
12-14-16 | 01:42 PM
#34
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 880
Likes: 11
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Bikes: Trek Emonda SL6, Trek Madone 4.5, Trek X-Caliber
Been there, done that, too dang expensive. The house in Cupertino across from that fruit company my (then) wife and I rented from her dad was sold in 1996 for about $160K. It's now valued at $2.6M. I shoulda bought the house from him and held on to it, then I wouldn't have to worry about the price of carbon wheels.
12-14-16 | 01:55 PM
#35
- Soli Deo Gloria -
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 14,779
Likes: 743
From: Northwest Georgia
Bikes: 2018 Rodriguez Custom Fixed Gear, 2017 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2015 Bianchi Pista, 2002 Fuji Robaix
12-14-16 | 06:57 PM
#36
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,844
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta GA
Bikes: '13 Spech Roubaix SL4 Expert
Having had a tarmac at 14.1 pounds and a venge at 17 i can say that the venge is faster on anything that is about 50ft per mile. The tarmac is faster at 100ft per mile. Since i live in a 50ft per mile area, the venge takes the edge.
12-14-16 | 09:46 PM
#38
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,277
Likes: 4
From: Kota, Aichi, Japan
Bikes: 2011 Giant Seek R3, 2015 Specialized Allez Elite, 2017 Giant TCR Advanced 2
I live in a pretty windy place, and ride across rice fields everyday, and I wonder if aero wheels would just end up catching too much wind.
And as someone else said, it's way cooler to show off a light bike...
I can't have either though, at least not without dropping the ball and chain.
And as someone else said, it's way cooler to show off a light bike...
I can't have either though, at least not without dropping the ball and chain.
12-15-16 | 10:19 AM
#39
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 880
Likes: 11
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Bikes: Trek Emonda SL6, Trek Madone 4.5, Trek X-Caliber
As for crosswinds, we get a lot here on the coast, especially on A1A along the coast between the condos and hotels. My 50mm carbon fairing wheels catch the winds some and blow you off your line but nothing too bad yet. I have heard about some smaller female riders getting blown over but a guy north of 150 pounds shouldn't have a problem, so i'm still 15 pounds from having a problem.
Keep the ball and chain, just tell her the wheels cost half as much as they did
12-15-16 | 12:27 PM
#42
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 880
Likes: 11
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Bikes: Trek Emonda SL6, Trek Madone 4.5, Trek X-Caliber
But we have wind hills! And you can ride them in short sleeve jersey and bibs all year long lol. But that's also why this article appealed to me, for me weight isn't a big factor because of the lack of climbs, for me aero is more important in the cross and head winds we have here through the winter mostly. Now if I still lived in San Jose and was still riding around Tahoe or something I'd have a different opinion, and a different wheelset I suspect.
12-15-16 | 01:40 PM
#44
I like bikes
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 169
Likes: 9
From: NCW
Bikes: A couple new and a couple old
I've been doing it wrong all my life! Light wheels, light components, light frames. What was I thinking? LOL
I think in the realm of lets say equal weight 1500 grams wheels, an aero wheel is better. But if the aero wheels were pushing 1800 grams, I would still go for the lighter, non aero wheels. I have gone from 1800-2000 grams wheels to 1400-1500 gram wheels. I believe I can feel a snappier, lighter bike any time I need to get up and go.
But I consider any wheel that is 1200-1500 grams to be light wheels. If its aero also... bonus.
Usually I get my aero by wheel sucking LOL.
I think in the realm of lets say equal weight 1500 grams wheels, an aero wheel is better. But if the aero wheels were pushing 1800 grams, I would still go for the lighter, non aero wheels. I have gone from 1800-2000 grams wheels to 1400-1500 gram wheels. I believe I can feel a snappier, lighter bike any time I need to get up and go.
But I consider any wheel that is 1200-1500 grams to be light wheels. If its aero also... bonus.
Usually I get my aero by wheel sucking LOL.
12-15-16 | 03:20 PM
#45
Senior Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 13
"Whatever the wheel fitted, the drag of the bike as it faces directly into the wind is more or less the same."
So if you are doing a time trial (or even a race) on a calm, windless morning why not go with the lightest wheelset?
So if you are doing a time trial (or even a race) on a calm, windless morning why not go with the lightest wheelset?
12-15-16 | 09:47 PM
#46
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,277
Likes: 4
From: Kota, Aichi, Japan
Bikes: 2011 Giant Seek R3, 2015 Specialized Allez Elite, 2017 Giant TCR Advanced 2
To get the wheels, I'd have to horde some money on the side and install them on the down low. I'm pretty sure she wouldn't notice. Like upgrading the computer.
12-16-16 | 11:07 AM
#47
Senior Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,301
Likes: 15
From: La La Land (We love it!)
Bikes: Gilmour road, Curtlo road; both steel (of course)
Been there, done that, too dang expensive. The house in Cupertino across from that fruit company my (then) wife and I rented from her dad was sold in 1996 for about $160K. It's now valued at $2.6M. I shoulda bought the house from him and held on to it, then I wouldn't have to worry about the price of carbon wheels.
__________________
Today, I believe my jurisdiction ends here...
Today, I believe my jurisdiction ends here...
12-20-16 | 04:25 PM
#49
Senior Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,301
Likes: 15
From: La La Land (We love it!)
Bikes: Gilmour road, Curtlo road; both steel (of course)
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
dvdslw
Road Cycling
56
11-03-15 09:49 PM
