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Pick one... weight or aero

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Pick one... weight or aero

Old 12-13-16, 12:46 PM
  #26  
PepeM
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Originally Posted by RChung View Post
I've used models that account for acceleration, and investigated keeping a database of moments of inertia for different wheels to improve the estimates of drag and predictions of sprint performance that the models produce. After a medium amount of effort, we stopped bothering.
Why? Effect too small or too much trouble?
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Old 12-13-16, 12:47 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post
I have heavy-ish aero wheels for TTing- front and rear 60 mm deep wheels and a rear disc. I'm all for buying free speed whenever possible. My fitter is a purist and does not like compromises.

Every now and then I try to get him to tell me to buy lighter wheels.

He tells me not to. Weight hardly matters as long as my wheels are not ridiculously heavy (which they're not).

However he does tell me he could get me into faster tires. (I resist, because I don't want tubes.)

The best way to test this stuff is going to be road aero testing. Which is coming, it will be the next thing in aero testing.

Of course I have wheels for climbing too. They are only lightish wheels because I prefer an alloy braking surface. No deep profile on my climbing wheels because I don't want to get hit by the crazy canyon crosswinds while on a high speed descent.

And of course if I was doing mass start races, I'd consider a set of wheels for that. Maybe full carbon but maybe not. There's an argument to be made for race wheels that aren't too expensive to replace, at least until you get to pretty advanced levels.

Hmm. Maybe the real answer is that there are pros and cons to different wheel types? And those pros and cons apply differently to each of us, based on whether we're riding recreationally vs racing, our weight, terrain, budget, and personal preferences? And that therefore it makes little difference to second guess or judge the other guys wheel choices? Cause maybe his decisions were made based on factors that are not immediately evident to you, looking at his situation from the outside?
No. Tell me what is THE BEST.
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Old 12-13-16, 12:51 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by RChung View Post
I've used models that account for acceleration, and investigated keeping a database of moments of inertia for different wheels to improve the estimates of drag and predictions of sprint performance that the models produce. After a medium amount of effort, we stopped bothering.
At that, only necessary to see what if any difference it makes for the extreme cases. For the roadie keeping up with the fast group, hunting Strava KOM's, you don't need much of a model. Straightforward simple equations, there's not much speed difference to be had from the greater acceleration of a pound or two less.

Racers on the edge of blowing up, trying to hold the wheel inches in front of them, I'll take their word for it because I never do that. With a grain of salt - I'd take almost any measurable aero improvement over a couple of hundred grams.
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Old 12-13-16, 01:26 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
The article says
"We've measured a 16% increase in wheel drag between a disc-braked wheelset and a standard wheelset", Jean-Paul told us. "We performed a direct back to back test of the Zipp 303FC in standard version and disc brake version, for our own competitor comparison purposes. That 16% is a constant offset in the performance curve across the entire cross wind angle range."
I find this pretty surprising. It looks like Zipp's 303 Disc is a different rim from their 303. I would expect most of the loss from the rotor to be made up for by a better rim shape.

It would appear that they tested the wheels alone, with no bike-

with the bike (& brakes), the difference would be exactly twelvety-sevenths %.

Surprising, for sure.
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Old 12-14-16, 09:46 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Sell your house in Florida.
Buy a house in Fort Collins (which is quite flat, but at 5000 feet).
Been contemplating the move to Colorado actually... but when it's 80 degrees right now and I can ride all winter in a short sleeve jersey and bibs it's hard to give that up
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Old 12-14-16, 10:21 AM
  #31  
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But skiing is a pretty good trade.
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Old 12-14-16, 11:04 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by floridamtb View Post
Been contemplating the move to Colorado actually... but when it's 80 degrees right now and I can ride all winter in a short sleeve jersey and bibs it's hard to give that up
The first time you get the adrenaline rush doing a fast mountain pass descent, you'll forget about Florida. I even prefer the long climbs over the flats too. And I have lived in both FL and CO. Wait nevermind, it sucks here don't come here. Besides CA just legalized Mary Jane go there instead...
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Old 12-14-16, 12:55 PM
  #33  
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My cheap Chinese carbon wheels (50mm and 1560 grams) picked up an average of about half a mile an hour. Pretty substantial, but tires made a bigger difference.
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Old 12-14-16, 01:42 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by jitteringjr View Post
Besides CA just legalized Mary Jane go there instead...
Been there, done that, too dang expensive. The house in Cupertino across from that fruit company my (then) wife and I rented from her dad was sold in 1996 for about $160K. It's now valued at $2.6M. I shoulda bought the house from him and held on to it, then I wouldn't have to worry about the price of carbon wheels.
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Old 12-14-16, 01:55 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by jitteringjr View Post
Besides CA just legalized Mary Jane go there instead...
And kept the death penalty.

That's some ****ed up priorities right there.


-Tim-
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Old 12-14-16, 06:57 PM
  #36  
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Having had a tarmac at 14.1 pounds and a venge at 17 i can say that the venge is faster on anything that is about 50ft per mile. The tarmac is faster at 100ft per mile. Since i live in a 50ft per mile area, the venge takes the edge.
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Old 12-14-16, 08:30 PM
  #37  
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My custom ain't gonna be lightweight or aero, but it's gonna be the bomb!
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Old 12-14-16, 09:46 PM
  #38  
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I live in a pretty windy place, and ride across rice fields everyday, and I wonder if aero wheels would just end up catching too much wind.

And as someone else said, it's way cooler to show off a light bike...

I can't have either though, at least not without dropping the ball and chain.
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Old 12-15-16, 10:19 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by San Pedro View Post
I can't have either though, at least not without dropping the ball and chain.
Divorces are wonderful things, I have 2 of them. It's kinda like the difference between riding the same bike every day or a new one every 6-12 months LOL.

As for crosswinds, we get a lot here on the coast, especially on A1A along the coast between the condos and hotels. My 50mm carbon fairing wheels catch the winds some and blow you off your line but nothing too bad yet. I have heard about some smaller female riders getting blown over but a guy north of 150 pounds shouldn't have a problem, so i'm still 15 pounds from having a problem.

Keep the ball and chain, just tell her the wheels cost half as much as they did
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Old 12-15-16, 10:38 AM
  #40  
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Beth hasn't asked what my Enve wheels cost.
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Old 12-15-16, 11:00 AM
  #41  
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Note the OP's @ " Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL " not a place renowned for its Alpine climbs..
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Old 12-15-16, 12:27 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Note the OP's @ " Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL " not a place renowned for its Alpine climbs..
But we have wind hills! And you can ride them in short sleeve jersey and bibs all year long lol. But that's also why this article appealed to me, for me weight isn't a big factor because of the lack of climbs, for me aero is more important in the cross and head winds we have here through the winter mostly. Now if I still lived in San Jose and was still riding around Tahoe or something I'd have a different opinion, and a different wheelset I suspect.
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Old 12-15-16, 01:20 PM
  #43  
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Have a different Peer Group to Impress with your bike too, I expect.
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Old 12-15-16, 01:40 PM
  #44  
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I've been doing it wrong all my life! Light wheels, light components, light frames. What was I thinking? LOL
I think in the realm of lets say equal weight 1500 grams wheels, an aero wheel is better. But if the aero wheels were pushing 1800 grams, I would still go for the lighter, non aero wheels. I have gone from 1800-2000 grams wheels to 1400-1500 gram wheels. I believe I can feel a snappier, lighter bike any time I need to get up and go.
But I consider any wheel that is 1200-1500 grams to be light wheels. If its aero also... bonus.
Usually I get my aero by wheel sucking LOL.
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Old 12-15-16, 03:20 PM
  #45  
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"Whatever the wheel fitted, the drag of the bike as it faces directly into the wind is more or less the same."

So if you are doing a time trial (or even a race) on a calm, windless morning why not go with the lightest wheelset?
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Old 12-15-16, 09:47 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by floridamtb View Post
Divorces are wonderful things, I have 2 of them. It's kinda like the difference between riding the same bike every day or a new one every 6-12 months LOL.


Keep the ball and chain, just tell her the wheels cost half as much as they did
... Yeah, divorce is real tempting, too bad I have kids...

To get the wheels, I'd have to horde some money on the side and install them on the down low. I'm pretty sure she wouldn't notice. Like upgrading the computer.
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Old 12-16-16, 11:07 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by floridamtb View Post
Been there, done that, too dang expensive. The house in Cupertino across from that fruit company my (then) wife and I rented from her dad was sold in 1996 for about $160K. It's now valued at $2.6M. I shoulda bought the house from him and held on to it, then I wouldn't have to worry about the price of carbon wheels.
Did you have $160K back then..?
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Old 12-16-16, 11:24 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by rmfnla View Post
Did you have $160K back then..?
No but had good enough credit to get the home loan
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Old 12-20-16, 04:25 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by floridamtb View Post
No but had good enough credit to get the home loan
I'd call that a "yes"...
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