I don't know the EXACT details of the transaction. For instance whether there was any mention of the possibility of frame damage, or the suggestion that maybe the frame should be checked before doing any work.

As described here, I don't see any black and white, which is why I suggested a middle ground solution. There's some wiggle room that might allow both to escape any loss because of the spread between the fork's cost to the dealer, and what the OP was expected to pay.

So, for example the OP and shop can agree to ebay the fork, and the shop gets whatever it brings, with the OP making up any loss if it comes up short of the wholesale cost. Or the OP pays half and takes his chances on ebaying the fork.

It also depends on whether the OP is buying a new bike or just a frame, and if so whether he'll ultimately be able to use the fork (in which he owes $450 for it).

I suggest that the OP and shop manager go out and sit down over beer or coffee and work this out like adults. Or they might agree on a neutral 3rd party to work it out for them.

Okay, I get the situation now.

I wouldn't pay for the fork. Clearly they assumed the problem was the fork and cut it assuming that would fix the problem THEN discovered the cracked frame.

But I would still see if you can fix the frame and if you can then pay them for the fork.

LBS are not charities they are businesses.

Well, here's my take.


I get it that we all want to get deals on the internet. But then we also want shops to exist that we can walk into when we have a problem and have someone there to help us out.


The reality is the shop has expenses and overhead that on-line stores and guys on Ebay don't have. So they have to charge more. And then if their regular customers start buying more and more stuff on the internet to save money, the shop has a decreased volume of business and then must charge a little more. You can argue that this is their problem to solve, that they just need to accept lower profits to meet the internet pricing. But at some point it doesn't make much sense anymore for the shop to exist. Then it closes and you have no one to help you troubleshoot problems on the bike.


So I think it you know that you buy stuff elsewhere when they the price is too good to pass up, then I guess the flip side of that IMO is that you have to expect to pony up more to the shop when you finally do go in there. I don't think its reasonable to ask them to eat the price of the fork in this scenario, but I think if you're going to ask them to do some other work in the near future, you could reasonably ask them to split the cost on the fork. If they can't/won't do it, well, what you do then is up to you. But I think the shop has a legit position if they ask you to pay for the fork, based on what you've since clarified, I'm not sure burning the bridge makes sense.


I had this same dilemma when I bought my Giro shoes recently. I needed to try them on in the shop but knew I could get them on Ebay for $100 less. But I'm friends with my LBS owner, he always gives me a standard 20% discount and how do I justify walking in there to try on the shoes and then go buy them elsewhere to get the killer deal. I want the shop to exist and I want to waltz in on a Friday afternoon and try the shoes on. So... If I want that, I have to support that. And I bought the shoes from the LBS.

You are right. It is sadly a consequence of the age we live in.

One solution is to learn how to do your own repairs.. That way you don't have to feel guilty shopping online for your bike parts ;).

My thought is that you politely point out that they are asking a customer to pay $450 for a part that did not address the problem and that the shop chose to cut down on their own. You might ask them if the $450 they are asking from you is worth the risk that you might make it known that this is how the shop operates. (The shop paid $225 for the fork. Mechanic is on salary so no real cost there. They can recoup $40 or more putting it in a sale bin or using to repair another smaller bike. So we are talking less than $200 lost to the shop if they write this off. Now your $450 is nice, but dies that offset the goodwill lost (and perhaps a bike sale or three if you talk this up)?

Ben

what size bike do you ride (or how tall is the head tube)?

I used to work in the car repair business too, and it was a common occurrence to get the mechanic to diagnose a problem, find a problem, and in the process of fixing that problem find numerous other problems. This happened regularly when fixing transmissions/engines/electrical issues. Sure, it sucks, but that's the nature of fixing stuff, especially after an accident. Some stuff cannot be seen until everything is apart or one problem is fixed.


Now, what my LBS would probably do in this situation is work out a deal on a new frameset for me, seeing as how the other one, and the original fork, is trashed and not salvageable. It wouldn't be free, and it wouldn't be cheap, but they would figure out a way to work out some of the cost of the new fork into the frameset deal. I would be happy with that. After all, I was the one who crashed my flashy cool bike.

What an excellent Bike Forums cunnundrum.

My mechanic would stop everything when they found a second issue, call me, and ask how I want to proceed.

I think that's a somewhat fair analogy.


A better car analogy might be you wreck your car and take it to a collision repair shop. The car won't track in a straight line after the accident, and you tell them that.


They order and install new front end suspension parts. On further testing, the car still pulls because there's irreparable frame damage, and the car's totaled.


Arguably you don't pay for the suspension parts because the shop should have looked at the whole situation, and determined whether it was a total before installing parts.


Here, there's a pretty good argument that the shop should have assessed the entire bike before installing the fork, and certainly before cutting the steerer.

True, but what if the new problem didn't show itself until he was out on the test ride after the first attempt?

Ben, Can I have my mechanics call you when I don't pay them this week? That's the only way I see "no real cost", or do you have some Unicorn pixie dust salary substitute thingy? Dumbass!

These analogies don't allow for the fact that the original fork was damaged and not usable. Therefore the replacement fork. But that didn't eliminate the noise, so the fork was still needed. It was the fact that to correct the noise, a new frame is necessary, making the newly installed fork irrelevant. If the shop hadn't cut the steerer, they might have been able to reclaim the fork.

I believe the shop acted in good faith in trying to fix the problem, but wasn't thorough in their examination. I think a discussion with the owner on a compromise that included them building up your new bike is good faith on your part, but also included you paying their cost for the fork. Then sell it yourself, recoup some of your costs, or keep it for another build.

Your bike is junk. Did you buy that bike at this shop? Are you going to buy a replacement? If so, and if you buy from them, they would be nuts to charge you $450 on top of that for a part you can't use and never even got to try. Maybe if you pay them $450, they keep the fork, and they give you a $450 credit?

I can see both sides of this.

Finding damage to a carbon frame, especially at a junction can be a challenge - I know from experience when I was hit riding my Cannondale System 6. The frame looked ok. But once I started hammering, I could feel things moving. It was only by wrenching on it could we fully deduce that the carbon was cracked at the junction.

I also can see why the LBS would cut the fork down. They believed that was the only issue, cut it down to install properly and to test. Yeah, maybe they could have used a used fork. Maybe they didn't have one that fit.

And I can also see why the OP doesn't want to pay for a fork he can't use.

So I think there is probably a compromise in there somewhere.

Perhaps offer to pay the shop what it paid for the fork - not the retail price - and for the labor in assessing the bike. Then ask the shop to consign the fork for you or, you put it on eBay or one of the forums for sale.

This way, the shop isn't out the cost of labor and it isn't out its cost on the fork. At the same time, the OP isn't providing the shop any profit off the transaction and has a chance to get most of his money back. Everyone ultimately comes out pretty much even in the end.

Here is another way to look t it. What if they had put on the fork, cut it badly, and cracked the steerer. Should the OP have to pay for two forks? Why not?

Really that is what happened here. They "broke" one fork so it cannot be reused (or can only be sold for much less profit) in the repair process. They also Failed to Repair the bike.

What, are they going to hand him a fork he cannot use and charge him for it, when he Never Agreed to Buy the Fork?

If they fixed his bike, he pays whatever they charge for fork and labor. But they are basically saying "here is a fork which doesn't fit anything because we broke it---pay full price--and Oh, yeah, we didn't fix your bike ." The fork is worthless and it is worthless Only because they "broke" it by cutting it.

When I hear this story I think "inexperienced mechanic." After a few decades of getting his/her butt kicked by reality, a wiser mechanic might have found a fork with an aluminum steerer (not cutting needed) and tested the rest of the bike. I bet this mechanic does that next time something like this happens.

Why should OP lay out $450 to get nothing but a "broken" fork, and pay for some guy's education? After all, the shop didn't say "Our mechanic trainee will use this as a training project." They said, "we'l fix your bike."

And they didn't.

I am with @ FBinNY ; on this. if you ever want to do business with the shop, sit down and see what you can work out --- they Owe you a great deal because they did Nothing for you but tried to charge you a great deal. If you can work out some deal where you get a bunch of credit on a new bike or something ...

Me? if we couldn't work out some Really sweet deal, I'd say, "Return my bike or I will call the police," because I wouldn't want to do business with them if we couldn't work out some sort of deal after they essentially tried to rob me to pay for a mistake their mechanic made.

Well, I disagree with the bolded part. They failed to repair the bike for the original estimate and with the new estimate because of the new information gathered from the test ride with a fixed fork, it's going to cost a frame to get the bike fixed properly.

OK. the cost of cutting: Shop wage $15/hr times two (insurance, etc.) Time to fit and cut a steerer, 20 minutes.

20/60 X $15 X 2 = $10.00. In the big picture here, real yes, but significant, no. (Now if he is paying that mechanic much more, the shop owner should be wondering about that mechanic's abilities.)

Ben

Also...I'm not sure if this was asked already at some point. Did the OP ask the shop to replace the fork specifically, or did he ask them to 'fix the bike?'

Not sure they ever even gave the OP an "estimate." Also not sure they Can repair the bike. If they can, then they can present the OP with an estimate to either fix or replace the frame and the fork, of course, will be included.

I do not see how they can expect OP to pay for the fork if they cannot fix the bike--it was their choice to act in that fashion--and if they did not get his signature on a written estimate or at least his verbal approval on the estimate for the fork ....

I know when I take my car to the shop they don't do any work i don't approve, and if they ever came back and said "Yeah, we have to charge you a bunch for the parts we used and damaged, which didn't even address the issue" I would sue.

No joke. The shop---IF it can even repair the frame---did not include that in the initial estimate, and the initial estimate was made with the understanding that he would have a ridable bike. if they thought that they were going to find more damage .. they should have either told him up front (the shop I take my car to has done that) or they failed to fulfill the contract.

IMO.

A good solution in the past but my time constraints dictate a path to the LBS for repairs.
So I met with LBS today. Discussed situation and agreed a 50-50 pay and if it sells then i get what is over his cost. I think this is reasonable especially since I dropped off the new frame and fork for him to build up. New clamp for front deraillure, new stem, new seat post will all be needed due to size of tube variation and I simply said to replace in kind. He's a good man, extremely knowledgeable and very thorough. I think we all learn daily, at least I hope we do, and I'm sure we both learned a valuable lesson.
The frame problems was a lessening of the down tube at the titanium insert. In order to fix, both top and down tube would need to be cut, then rebuilt with new tubes and finish. Estimate was more than I spent on my new frame, a gorgeous, used Crumpton in virtually perfect condition.
So he has the frame, problem solved and thanks all for your valuable suggestions.

Well, I'm assuming they got approval to purchase and install the fork. If not, then that is a whole nuther issue.


A bike is just a collection of parts put together...it sounds like they can fix the bike by replacing the frame with another frame, which it sounds like was found out after the broken fork was replaced.


Original estimates on repairs aren't always the bottom line...never really been in my experience. I would think anybody who has experience getting stuff fixed would know that already but usually that's all in the fine print in a written estimate. I have no idea if this bike shop uses a written estimate. Mine does for complicated repairs, but usually it's a verbal thing.


Last time I wrecked my bike it cost me a wheelset and I have a nice scratch in the frame. Now, if I would have purchased the wheelset and then on the ride found out the frame was trashed also, I would have had to purchase a frame too. Hopefully, and I do believe my lbs would work with me on the price of the frame.

Here is another analogy that happened to me. I had to get a new roof on the house...shingles replaced. Well, while they were replacing the shingles they found several areas that needed new plywood from rot. Apparently the house really did need a new roof. So, I had to pay quite a bit extra for a new roof compared to the original estimate.

OP took the high road.

Man, you just ruined what could have been a bitter, hateful debate of epic proportions by being reasonable and kind. I hate it when that happens.

No pics of the new frame? I have never heard of "Crumpton," but it sounds Very English.