Yes, I think you make a good point.
However, the reason it's worse for the customer to lowball than it is for the vendor to highball (?) is because selling things is how the shop or a professional vendor, if you will, makes a living. In contrast, when it comes to things like bikes, the buyer's livelihood generally isn't dependent on how reasonable or profitable the deal is. Things are a little different when it comes to essentials.[/QUOTE]


So its OK for a shop to overvalue products because they make a living selling those items, but its not equally OK for a buyer to undervalue products even though they are paying for the products with money they earned?

er…that seems incongruent.
A buyer works hard to make a living too. Handing over more money and buying products at ‘highball’ prices just to also ensure the seller earns a living isnt noble or anything like that. It makes no sense and with more information comes more empowered buyers.

Abe Sanchez is a speaker that focuses on optimizing customer service and has a lot of data on this. One of his primary points is you have to look to fire some customers and typically they may be your largest. The largest may offer you the lowest margins and want the most attention.

As long as we're talking about discretionary items, the buyer starts out at an advantage. He can be just as happy whether he buys the item or not, but someone who makes a living selling stuff is happy ONLY when people buy it.

That said, there are definitely times when a vendor offers something "over his head," sort of the other side of the coin from ignorant buyers. I recall sitting at the bar eating lunch in a restaurant one day when a small group of Italian tourists came in, just wanting a "caffe." Well, the place was a bit more traditionally American and formal than a cafe, but it turns out they did have espresso on the menu. Down with desserts. For $4. Not unusual for a sit down restaurant in NYC, but clearly outrageous to anyone used to spending just 1 euro for the same. The restaurant wasn't trying to screw anyone out of their hard-earned money (the idea that a customer's dollars are any harder earned than a vendor's is rather presumptuous anyhow), it's just that the tourists had stumbled upon a prime high-margin item that the restaurant used to balance their low-margin and loss items. Talk about awkward.

How much do I haggle on a new bike? I don't have to . . . much. I've been a customer for 12 years. I buy a new high-mid range bike of some sort built up from frameset (usually Ultegra Di2 level) about every year or year and a half. I occasionally buy a low-end bike. And I bring / send serious potential customers to the shop. They know they will hear from people that I have referred or that have seen my bike on a ride or race somewhere. (And I NEVER tell anyone what I paid for my bikes.)

When I figure out what I want to buy, I contact the General Manager directly with my shopping list. (NOT the sales guys.) I've dealt with him for 12 years as sales guys have come and gone. I ask him for his best price, assembled and ready to ride, tax and all. He gives it to me. Except for the first couple of bikes I bought, his first price has always been more than acceptable. (Usually about 15% to 17.5% off of the shop's price on a current bike or next year's pre-order. I've received 30% off of an in-stock, last year's model, bike with an UGLY paint job -- even though it was a low-end bike without much meat on the bone.)


So that's the extent of my haggling on a new bike . . . I ask for their best price. They come back with a really good price. I write a check. Done. It's the product of a relationship and it works for both of us.

"I dreamed all last night, that everyone I ever sold a car to came back for a refund. And there you were, handing out the checks! One for you, and one for you..."

Over the years I have known lots of people in the restaurant server world. You may be surprised at the number of people who try to get over by ordering a meal, eating most of it, then coming up with some excuse not to pay or for asking for something different because there is something wrong with what they were given. I had an embarrassing aunt who did that on occasion.


There is a chain place in Pennsylvania called Hoss's Steak & Sea. It's one of those places (or at least it used to be) where you order your steak and/or sea food off the menu on the wall when you first walk in. Then you get to enjoy the buffet/salad bar while your entrée is being prepared. Years ago I ate there a couple of times during road trips. If you order a steak a server invariably comes by after you have taken a bite or two and asks you if it is cooked to your liking. May seem like good customer service, but I have no doubt it's done because people eat a good portion of the steak and then try to send it back, claiming that it was overcooked or undercooked.

Really depends on what/where I'm buying.

At the LBS, I don't haggle, but that's because if I'm there, I'm buying new and because they have stock immediately available and because there's either warranty, return policy or service. I don't buy my bikes from them--so maybe if I was dropping a large enough sum, maybe it would be a different story. Maybe I'd ask--but end of the day, I tend to assume the item is priced to move (professional sellers don't stand to gain anything by holding inventory, they don't have romantic attachments to item, they know what they can sell it for).

But used goods from a private party? I'll haggle. $200 instead of $250 for used wheelset. $10 instead of $15 for used pedals. I justify it because I don't know the true condition of the item, there is no warranty, there is no return policy, there is no expectation of servicing, there is no relationship to be cultivated.

I don't see why this makes people "horrible". If that is the cultural norm, what exactly is wrong with it?

Oh, I wouldn't be surprised at all. One of my first jobs was pearl diving at restaurants when I was a teenager. I heard everything from wait staff, chefs, the maitre de, and sometimes even the customers. My station was immediately next to the door between the kitchen and dining room so I got to hear it all.

Funniest and saddest incident was at a very good French cuisine restaurant at a private resort where I washed dishes. One of the regulars was a beautiful young heiress to a well known industry. A bit of a Paris Hilton, decades earlier. She was in tears, sobbing something about being embarrassed in front of her guests because the dessert didn't turn out right. It was the chef's specialty, a cross between a crème brûlée and crème custard. The chef's variation looked like an ordinary custard, flipped and served, but instead of soft caramel from the bottom of the baking cup forming the topping, it would usually form a hard caramel candy the size and shape of a silver dollar. I finally realized she was crying because the custard didn't form the hard caramel coin, just the ordinary soft caramel. Apparently it was a hit-or-miss dessert, depending on humidity, barometric pressure, etc.

Ah, the travails of the young and wealthy.

Anyway, back to Shoney's -- which I'll never do... my first response to the horrible food was to ask them to replace it. I figured anyone can have a bad day, maybe a new cook, a mistake, who knows. But they were immediately rude about it. That's when I finally said I wasn't paying. And we'd eaten only a couple of bites of a few items, enough to know it was awful, cooked in rancid grease, stale, etc. And I'm really not a picky eater. But that was my limit.

We've had the Breaking Away reference.. now reading these last couple posts, I'm thinking of the Mr Pink tipping scene..

I do my shopping on eBay. Although, my 2 CAAD10s came from bike shops. I tried haggling, but they were firm on the price. I bought them anyway