What is considered a "light" bike?
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#102
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So now you can't debate the argument with logic and start with the semantics... semantics is one of the lowest form of arguments. They lead to equivocation rather than debating the actual content in context.
Last edited by 1500SLR; 06-08-18 at 09:14 PM.
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The common and popular misconception is that materials that bend are "weak." It is based on the misconception that those materials that do no not bend are "strong". In reality, many materials that undergo large elastic and plastic deformations, such as steel, are able to absorb stresses that would cause brittle failures in materials such as carbon and glass. You've been run over by the carbon hype train.
Last edited by 1500SLR; 06-08-18 at 09:32 PM.
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The Cinelli XCr frame you mentioned earlier is listed as weighing 1,560g on the manufacturer's product web-page.
The Trek Emonda SLR frame is commonly quoted as weighing 640g.
What parts of this are hype? What parts are not based in reality?
The Trek Emonda SLR frame is commonly quoted as weighing 640g.
What parts of this are hype? What parts are not based in reality?
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As to your question explicitly... The weight of a frame is only one factor among many. I already raised the point that you can make a 6.7kg bike out of steel, you can also make one out of aluminum, or titanium. You have to take into account all of the components of a bike not just the weight of the frame itself.
Last edited by 1500SLR; 06-09-18 at 02:21 AM.
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When I say carbon is stronger than steel, I'm talking about riding the damn thing, not crashing it - this is why a carbon frame weighs like 60% of a steel frame - because it's stronger stuff. You're thinking of a property better described as toughness. By the way, it's said that carbon's fatigue life is practically infinite.
And there's no way in hell tube profiling and mucking around with wall thickness can match what you can do with carbon in terms of stiffness and compliance in various directions.
This shouldn't be that hard to understand.
PS. My TCR cost $40 after I sold the groupset off it.
And there's no way in hell tube profiling and mucking around with wall thickness can match what you can do with carbon in terms of stiffness and compliance in various directions.
This shouldn't be that hard to understand.
PS. My TCR cost $40 after I sold the groupset off it.
Last edited by Kimmo; 06-09-18 at 02:01 AM.
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Then we have to accept that crashes are inevitable. I've been driving for over almost 20years. In the space of that I'd never had accident until a couple weeks ago. For whatever reason a series of unfortunate events happened. A car came to a complete stop after another car was involved in an incident where they swerved in front of the driver ahead of me, before you know it you have a pile up. On a bike especially in racing conditions accidents happen nearly every stage of a race. In crit racing it happens almost every race.
We can accept that carbon has an almost infinite life if its put in a vacuum avoiding all other facts but we don't live in vacuums. If you accept the fact that you're going to be spending money breaking bike components inevitably. That's fine also. Not all of us have a bottomless put of money to spend on a shiny new bike frame every time something happens even if its not our fault.
We can accept that carbon has an almost infinite life if its put in a vacuum avoiding all other facts but we don't live in vacuums. If you accept the fact that you're going to be spending money breaking bike components inevitably. That's fine also. Not all of us have a bottomless put of money to spend on a shiny new bike frame every time something happens even if its not our fault.
#111
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I mostly ride steel bikes, but crash resilience has nothing to do with it.
That's a secondary benefit. The main benefit is its high strength, which is anisotropic, allowing frame designers to make a bike that transfers pedaling effort efficiently while isolating road shock to a degree that's impossible for a metal frame in a double diamond format
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While it's true that crashes usually need to be very extreme to fracture steel frames, the yield strength of steel frames is usually not particularly good. And while it's not that dangerous to bend a slightly-deformed Varsity frameset back into shape, higher-end steels and thinner-wall tubes make the matter much sketchier. In the case of some supersteels like Reynolds 953, framebuilders even have to plan their process carefully to avoid post-weld alignment cold setting.
I mostly ride steel bikes, but crash resilience has nothing to do with it.
The anisotropic strength of carbon is the root of both benefits. As to which one is more "primary", there really isn't enough readily-available information to say, since the actual effects of frame flex and stiffness are not particularly well-understood, at least on the public stage. I was shocked last summer when Cannondale let one of their engineers go and semi-agree with Jan Heine.
I mostly ride steel bikes, but crash resilience has nothing to do with it.
The anisotropic strength of carbon is the root of both benefits. As to which one is more "primary", there really isn't enough readily-available information to say, since the actual effects of frame flex and stiffness are not particularly well-understood, at least on the public stage. I was shocked last summer when Cannondale let one of their engineers go and semi-agree with Jan Heine.
Its good to talk about all the other benefits of carbon in a perfect vacuum, bu they don't represent the reality of riding a bike and some people choose to be ignorant of the facts that accidents do happen even if its detrimental to their own benefits to understand.
#113
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The carbon horror stories are generally from forks assploding, and from long ago. Your non carbon bike... what’s the fork made of?
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Carbon... but yeah... Its had a pretty damn easy life. 2owners and about 6000miles. That's exactly what I'm worried about especially with older carbon bikes. The forks assploding and killing the rider as a result. You can't really tell if your bike has cracks in it or not either unless you trust your own riding history.
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I was shocked last summer when Cannondale let one of their engineers go and semi-agree with Jan Heine.
Anyway, if some flex is advantageous, I suspect you want less of it in a carbon frame than a steel one, because hysteresis.
#116
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Back on topic, for road bikes this is what I think:
>12kg is mega heavy
>10kg (most cheap stock bikes) is pretty heavy
>8kg (midrange stock) is a bit porky still
>6.8kg (higher end stock bikes and easy to achieve when building up your own) is pretty good and definitely 'light', some pro bikes are like 7.5kg
<6.8kg, technically 'illegal' so definitely light, but nothing particularly special
<6kg (very high end stock, still easy to build up but getting expensive) is very light
<5kg (a select few stock bikes, and difficult to build up without vast expense and/or tuning) super light, and probably not suitable for heavy people
<4kg (no stock bikes I've heard of, requires customisation and lots of money!) ultralight.
The lightest bike in the world weighs 2.7kg and cost an estimated $45,000, not a single part can be bought as it appears on the bike 'off the shelf'.
IMO any road racing (whether you race or not) bike over 8kg is unnecessary heavy. So many people spend thousands on fancy custom bikes, and I'm often amazed at how much some of them weigh, even with top end everything! Of course it doesn't reeely matter how much your bike weighs, but it's so easy to build a light one so why wouldn't you?
My bike weighs 7.3kg, which I do not consider to be particularly light and would like to improve on.
>12kg is mega heavy
>10kg (most cheap stock bikes) is pretty heavy
>8kg (midrange stock) is a bit porky still
>6.8kg (higher end stock bikes and easy to achieve when building up your own) is pretty good and definitely 'light', some pro bikes are like 7.5kg
<6.8kg, technically 'illegal' so definitely light, but nothing particularly special
<6kg (very high end stock, still easy to build up but getting expensive) is very light
<5kg (a select few stock bikes, and difficult to build up without vast expense and/or tuning) super light, and probably not suitable for heavy people
<4kg (no stock bikes I've heard of, requires customisation and lots of money!) ultralight.
The lightest bike in the world weighs 2.7kg and cost an estimated $45,000, not a single part can be bought as it appears on the bike 'off the shelf'.
IMO any road racing (whether you race or not) bike over 8kg is unnecessary heavy. So many people spend thousands on fancy custom bikes, and I'm often amazed at how much some of them weigh, even with top end everything! Of course it doesn't reeely matter how much your bike weighs, but it's so easy to build a light one so why wouldn't you?
My bike weighs 7.3kg, which I do not consider to be particularly light and would like to improve on.
#117
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By the way, as much as I appreciate a good looking, well-made bike, I don't think I'll ever understand why some people think it's appropriate to display them like fine art. As a trophy, like a stag's head, sure, but as sculpture? Never. They just have their own story, and nothing to say about anything else.
#119
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Carbon... but yeah... Its had a pretty damn easy life. 2owners and about 6000miles. That's exactly what I'm worried about especially with older carbon bikes. The forks assploding and killing the rider as a result. You can't really tell if your bike has cracks in it or not either unless you trust your own riding history.
Your mean like your 1500SLR?
When you dent the top tube of your aluminum frame, it's junk.
A carbon frame can be readily repaired.
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No not really, you can repair aluminum just like any other material. Carbon doesn't dent it cracks, and that's my point. It cracks and a lot of a time you don't know its cracked until it snaps and at which point it may kill you. You are more likely to break a weld than dent an alloy bike anyway.
#121
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No not really, you can repair aluminum just like any other material. Carbon doesn't dent it cracks, and that's my point. It cracks and a lot of a time you don't know its cracked until it snaps and at which point it may kill you. You are more likely to break a weld than dent an alloy bike anyway.
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If it's 6xxx-series ally, it should be heat-treated after the repair; pretty sure nobody offers such a service.
The fact is, there are mobs doing proper repairs to carbon frames, and that pretty much doesn't happen with ally.
LOL, cause you know that's fail by hypocrisy?
The fact is, there are mobs doing proper repairs to carbon frames, and that pretty much doesn't happen with ally.
LOL, cause you know that's fail by hypocrisy?