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Toe overlap

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Toe overlap

Old 06-19-18, 11:00 PM
  #1  
Jofu
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Toe overlap

A few years ago, I read about toe overlap, and wondered why anyone would buy a bike with this “feature”, thinking it was pretty dangerous and all...

Well, fast forward to recently, and I found out a bike of mine I bought 2 years ago and which I use often actually has toe overlap Only problem is, I found out the hard way, while wearing my new white pair of S-Works 7 shoes If it’s any consolation, the scratch is not in a super visible area...

Did that ever happen to any of you?

Geoff
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Old 06-19-18, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Jofu
A few years ago, I read about toe overlap, and wondered why anyone would buy a bike with this “feature”, thinking it was pretty dangerous and all...

Well, fast forward to recently, and I found out a bike of mine I bought 2 years ago and which I use often actually has toe overlap Only problem is, I found out the hard way, while wearing my new white pair of S-Works 7 shoes If it’s any consolation, the scratch is not in a super visible area...

Did that ever happen to any of you?

Geoff
Almost every bike I've ever owned had toe overlap and it's only apparent if not moving and only a problem, for me, if there is something on the shoe or wheel to snag. I installed some fenders on one bike and the struts extended a bit too far and I bumped into them a couple times and, therefore, trimmed them. I can still hit the fender with my foot, but it's no longer a problem.
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Old 06-20-18, 02:03 AM
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I would not want to have a road bike with no toe overlap. It would be impossible to make it handle the way that I like when the front wheel is way out there.
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Old 06-20-18, 02:26 AM
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Overlap is common on smaller bikes. Mine has some overlap. Im not a fan, but the alternative is a slacker head angle, to move the front wheel further away from the crank, and it would steer more like a bus. In reality we should have smaller wheels for smaller bikes, but Im guessing that is never gonna happen. Instead most smaller bikes have weird geometry to overcome the overlap issues and accommodate using the same fork on all frame sizes, to reduces number of SKUs. This is even true for expensive top of the line bikes. For instance the smaller size CAADs from Cannondale has very strange geometry.
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Old 06-20-18, 06:27 AM
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Shorter cranks and the toe overlap is gone. Bike handles the same. Win/win.
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Old 06-20-18, 07:47 AM
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I've got a 59cm bike and have overlap.. realize that the larger the bike, the likelihood of the rider's feet being larger too.
Part of life.. I don't think about it. And yup, white shoes obviously display the war wounds best. Try a Mr Clean "Magic Eraser" pad to clean.
Also, I smear a bit of clear shoe goo over the area to protect shoe from actual wear-thru
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Old 06-20-18, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
I've got a 59cm bike and have overlap.. realize that the larger the bike, the likelihood of the rider's feet being larger too.
Part of life.. I don't think about it. And yup, white shoes obviously display the war wounds best. Try a Mr Clean "Magic Eraser" pad to clean.
Also, I smear a bit of clear shoe goo over the area to protect shoe from actual wear-thru
Right behind you, there. Short wheelbase, & cleats rearward.
These shoes about 1 1/2 yrs old.
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Old 06-20-18, 11:05 AM
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My last 52cm Domane has no overlap and I don’t remember any of my older bikes having any but my New Speedvagen does. I noticed on my first ride of course and kind of freaked me out, within a couple rides I seem to have naturally adjusted my starts, stops, and track stands and now it never seems to happen much.

FWIW, back in the late 80’s Terry had race bikes for small women that had 700c rear wheels and 24” front wheels. Didn’t last long I don’t think.
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Old 06-20-18, 11:24 AM
  #9  
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Unless your bike is a fixed gear and you're constantly doing low-speed U-turns, I don't see this as a real issue. If you need to turn the bars that far, learn to coast through the turn.
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Old 06-20-18, 11:38 AM
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I have toe overlap on both my bikes... only really bothers me on the CX bike when I'm trying to make a slow speed tight turn off road.
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Old 06-20-18, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
Overlap is common on smaller bikes. Mine has some overlap. Im not a fan, but the alternative is a slacker head angle, to move the front wheel further away from the crank, and it would steer more like a bus. In reality we should have smaller wheels for smaller bikes, but Im guessing that is never gonna happen. Instead most smaller bikes have weird geometry to overcome the overlap issues and accommodate using the same fork on all frame sizes, to reduces number of SKUs. This is even true for expensive top of the line bikes. For instance the smaller size CAADs from Cannondale has very strange geometry.
Well, 650C is a thing; it's just been periodically dead or not-quite-dead.
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Old 06-20-18, 12:17 PM
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How are you guys hitting your front wheels that much that your shoes are so scuffed up? Are you trying to track stand and just really bad at it or something?

I don't understand how that happens to such an extent, even with toe overlap.
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Old 06-20-18, 12:33 PM
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Ok those shoe pictures make me feel better about mines, which are still mostly white


Geoff
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Old 06-20-18, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
How are you guys hitting your front wheels that much that your shoes are so scuffed up? Are you trying to track stand and just really bad at it or something?

I don't understand how that happens to such an extent, even with toe overlap.
For me, probably 95% of the scuffs are from switchback/hairpins on a combo pedestrian/cycling ramp and path to get over the George Washington Bridge NYC/NJ. It looks like a lot, but it's accumulated over a couple years of rides. Anyone else here do the GWB ramp and can speak to this?
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Old 06-20-18, 01:21 PM
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Those battle scar covered white shoes are great!

Makes me want to go ride my fixie.
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Old 06-20-18, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
How are you guys hitting your front wheels that much that your shoes are so scuffed up? Are you trying to track stand and just really bad at it or something?

I don't understand how that happens to such an extent, even with toe overlap.
Large turning inputs at low speeds. My bike rides start on walkway perpendicular to a steep hill, so the first thing that happens as I climb is a sharp right turn at 1mph.
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Old 06-20-18, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by robbyville
FWIW, back in the late 80’s Terry had race bikes for small women that had 700c rear wheels and 24” front wheels. Didn’t last long I don’t think.
It's a little obnoxious for most riders to have two different bead-seat diameters on the same bike. If you're going to bother going with a small front wheel, it's usually convenient to have a small rear wheel as well.
Having the rear wheel be 700c was partly a concession to the gearing of the day. Now that 11-tooth cogs are ubiquitousish, it's easier to achieve an adequate high-end on small wheels with a standard derailleur drivetrain.

(And for racing purposes, the UCI doesn't allow mismatched wheel sizes any more anyway. You're actually permitted to use as small as a 55cm inflated diameter, but you can't use one small wheel and one big wheel.)
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Old 06-20-18, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
Overlap is common on smaller bikes. Mine has some overlap. Im not a fan, but the alternative is a slacker head angle, to move the front wheel further away from the crank, and it would steer more like a bus. In reality we should have smaller wheels for smaller bikes, but Im guessing that is never gonna happen. Instead most smaller bikes have weird geometry to overcome the overlap issues and accommodate using the same fork on all frame sizes, to reduces number of SKUs. This is even true for expensive top of the line bikes. For instance the smaller size CAADs from Cannondale has very strange geometry.
In recent years, decent quality 650B (584mm ERD) and 650C (571mm ERD) rims and tires have become more available, so the big hurdle now is convincing manufacturers that there is a market for small frames built with these wheel sizes in mind.

Of course, you could always go custom …
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Old 06-20-18, 02:59 PM
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It's especially problematic with fixed gears, not because of the geometry but because you can't re-position your feet. Mostly not a big deal except for slow-speed maneuvers like in parking lots and driveways. You learn to deal with it - I wouldn't want a bike designed not to have any overlap and then it wouldn't handle well at speed.

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Old 06-20-18, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
How are you guys hitting your front wheels that much that your shoes are so scuffed up? Are you trying to track stand and just really bad at it or something?

I don't understand how that happens to such an extent, even with toe overlap.


Also a steep turn situation similar to those mentioned, track- standy maneuvering at intersections, and sometimes 15%+ climbing.
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Old 06-20-18, 04:25 PM
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I picked up a new Giant Defy AP0 in March and immediately noticed the difference in toe overlap between it and my old Cannondale Supersix EVO.
I rode the EVO for five years and my foot would occasionally (really, very rarely) touch the front tire, almost exclusively during track stands. On the Defy it's a regular occurrence, during track stands and really slow speed turns. I find it somewhat disconcerting.
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Old 06-20-18, 04:51 PM
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My son just found out about toe overlap this last Saturday. We stopped at a crossing and somehow while waiting with the front wheel turned sideways manage to get his foot in the way when the light turned green and looked a little silly while trying to recover. Thankfully probably I was the only other that realized he'd screwed up and there wasn't a fall or injury. But that is when he learned about toe overlap on bikes.

It's something that's been around for a long time. Get dusted off and discussed occasionally through the years. I think many bikes have it and their owners just have never experienced it because it's generally only during the brief moment of stopping or starting that the wheel might be turned enough to interfere with toes. Though I'm sure someone has made it happen in other situations.

I don't think a bike is unsafe because of it. Just like slamming your fingers in the car door, it happens occasionally. Unless you have some really, really long cranks and perhaps a cleat placement that puts your foot far forward on the pedals, then during normal riding you are not going to turn the wheel enough to experience it.
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Old 06-20-18, 07:49 PM
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Toe over lap all day on crit bikes, makes track standing a little harder but I will definitely take that so I can cruise through corners. To OP I had the same thing happen to my brand new white S-Work 7 shoes, some scuffs on the toes but I found that it wipes away clean with some soap and water on a rag.
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Old 06-21-18, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by MakiNn
Toe over lap all day on crit bikes, makes track standing a little harder but I will definitely take that so I can cruise through corners. To OP I had the same thing happen to my brand new white S-Work 7 shoes, some scuffs on the toes but I found that it wipes away clean with some soap and water on a rag.
Funny you mentioned crit bikes, I just bought and built an Allez Sprint! I better get used to toe overlap in a hurry haha.

Sadly for my S-Works 7 shoes, mine were somehow scratched so it won’t wipe off in my case... But glad to hear yours did!

Geoff
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Old 06-21-18, 02:40 AM
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To my mind, toe overlap is epic fail; it just shouldn't be a thing that's tolerated. Aside from messing with low-speed turns, it really interferes with track-standing at the lights. Lucky for me I only get it on bikes that are too small for me.

But for women, kids and shorter guys, I reckon the situation blows. 650C front wheels should totally be a thing on smaller bikes. I don't think 11t is the answer for gearing, either - if you want 11t on 700C, where are you on 650C? And it makes the gaps between gears unnecessarily wide anyway.

Another reason for smaller front wheels aside from toe overlap is crazy-short head tubes, which are hard on the headset and frame, and get to a minimum length and then leave the stack height potentially too high for smaller riders wanting an aggressive position.

Last edited by Kimmo; 06-21-18 at 02:57 AM.
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