New Etap AXS review and pricing
02-17-19, 04:14 PM
#76
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Etap has worked flawlessly for me (first generation even, OMG). That they had a lot of issues, I would argue I haven't found this to be the case. As to the question of SRAM's idea of an improved 12speed groupset my opinion is it's a fail. Too many proprietary pieces. However if a person was to purchase a bike with the one and done attitude it may fit the need just fine.
02-17-19, 07:41 PM
#77
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The shop I work at, and the framebuilder I work for, have sold approximately 30 eTap bikes/groupsets. I've seen 8 issues with sleeping derailleurs(one groupset had 2 issues). SRAM always handled the problem quickly, and without any hassle, but It's a problem that users shouldn't have to experience.
The only benefit of eTap is the ease of installation
02-17-19, 08:46 PM
#78
Senior Member
To this, I would say that you have a very limited sample size.
The shop I work at, and the framebuilder I work for, have sold approximately 30 eTap bikes/groupsets. I've seen 8 issues with sleeping derailleurs(one groupset had 2 issues). SRAM always handled the problem quickly, and without any hassle, but It's a problem that users shouldn't have to experience.
The only benefit of eTap is the ease of installation
The shop I work at, and the framebuilder I work for, have sold approximately 30 eTap bikes/groupsets. I've seen 8 issues with sleeping derailleurs(one groupset had 2 issues). SRAM always handled the problem quickly, and without any hassle, but It's a problem that users shouldn't have to experience.
The only benefit of eTap is the ease of installation
And I’ve used eTap for fast two week tours on my bike. One of the reasons I got it was becasue when I take the bike down to fit in my travel case (wheels, fork, bars all off), it’s one less set of wires to adjust. I just pop the chain apart at the quick link, chain goes into a zip lock and the RD gets unbolted and put into the interior of the case where it’s heavily protected. That cuts my time for assembly/disassembly of the bike in to/out of a case.
That means that I don’t have to have a chopped frame with couplers and which has never cost me a bike charge with the airlines. For that, I carry a very tiny charger that can charge our four batteries (and which I’ve not had to use on tour yet). We routinely get 600-700 miles out of a charge. That’s pretty close to “don’t care” or “doesn’t matter” territory for me. FWIW, we tour with less than 20lbs per person including camping gear and we do worry about weight. So there is someone that tours on eTap for you too. Oh, and that’s another benefit besides installation too. There’s also the clean lines of the bike, no need to replace RD and FD cables, no need to adjust RD/FD cables etc... There’s lot of benefit.
I’ve had a couple of bikes with electronic shifting (one Di2, the other eTap) on them for about 5 years and thousands of miles. I’d have to say that I have less maintenance than I do with a mech bike and I’ve not had any failures of the electronics in that entire time. Pretty solid as far as I’m concerned.
02-17-19, 08:55 PM
#79
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One of the reasons I got it was becasue when I take the bike down to fit in my travel case (wheels, fork, bars all off), it’s one less set of wires to adjust. I just pop the chain apart at the quick link, chain goes into a zip lock and the RD gets unbolted and put into the interior of the case where it’s heavily protected. That cuts my time for assembly/disassembly of the bike in to/out of a case.
SRAM might have fixed the sleeping derailleur issue, but they never formally admitted there was an issue, so they won't likely mention any "fix" they did.
Last edited by noodle soup; 02-17-19 at 08:59 PM.
02-17-19, 10:13 PM
#80
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Who cares? It works and it’s proven quite reliable. Don’t like it? Don’t use it. Easy peezy.
02-18-19, 09:12 AM
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As a bike mechanic I can tell you that I've worked on hundreds of Di2 bikes, and connected/disconnected Di2 couplers over 1000 times without a failure. it's not a relatively delicate connector.
Wireless works most of the time, but not all the time. Ease of installation is the only benefit of a wireless system, and the vast majority of cyclists never have to worry that
02-18-19, 10:16 AM
#82
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[QUOTE=noodle soup;20800286]As a bike mechanic I can tell you that I've worked on hundreds of Di2 bikes, and connected/disconnected Di2 couplers over 1000 times without a failure. it's not a relatively delicate connector.[quote]
Good for you. As an electrical engineer I can tell you that cables and interconnect are one of most common failure points. And should that fail for me in some remote place, I’m pretty much screwed. So we each have our reasons.
But it’s not you touring with me (thankfully, I’m guessing) and I don’t think you’re even touring with a Di2 bike, so it is kind of a pointless comment isn’t it? If I don’t want to be plugging and unplugging cables, I guess that’s my problem, isn’t it?
Nothing works all of the time. Nothing.
I don’t have the numbers, but frankly I’d be shocked if eTap reliability is less than that of mechanical.
The only benefit to YOU. I’ve already described the benefits that I see and have experienced. You apparently don’t care about those but the fact that they exist makes your statement false on it’s face. Also, given that SRAM has sold volumes of these systems also would sort of invalidate your statement about it’s lack of benefit. Presumably, people don’t buy products in quantity if they don’t get a benefit.
Good for you. As an electrical engineer I can tell you that cables and interconnect are one of most common failure points. And should that fail for me in some remote place, I’m pretty much screwed. So we each have our reasons.
But it’s not you touring with me (thankfully, I’m guessing) and I don’t think you’re even touring with a Di2 bike, so it is kind of a pointless comment isn’t it? If I don’t want to be plugging and unplugging cables, I guess that’s my problem, isn’t it?
Wireless works most of the time, but not all the time.
I don’t have the numbers, but frankly I’d be shocked if eTap reliability is less than that of mechanical.
Ease of installation is the only benefit of a wireless system, and the vast majority of cyclists never have to worry that
02-18-19, 10:29 AM
#84
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Bringing up touring here is kinda pointless here though. Neither Di2 or eTap is designed for that.
02-18-19, 10:42 AM
#86
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Shifting doesn't have to be 100% reliable, it has to be good enough that for majority of the time it works. No different then mechanical shifter failing once in a blue moon, or you go out and forget to charge your battery with newer ones. Actually that's where SRAM has an advantage. You can swap the batterries and still finish the ride.
02-18-19, 10:53 AM
#87
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It works well and I’m quite happy with it. If you’re not, don’t use it - I don’t see that as all that complicated. I agree though, I don’t think I’d put it on a bike like a Disc Trucker either, but I’d be speaking a bit out of school because that’s not the sort of bike I’d ever probably own for where and how I ride. So I’d leave that to you since we’re all the best judge of what works best for each of us.
02-18-19, 11:02 AM
#88
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To this, I would say that you have a very limited sample size.
The shop I work at, and the framebuilder I work for, have sold approximately 30 eTap bikes/groupsets. I've seen 8 issues with sleeping derailleurs(one groupset had 2 issues). SRAM always handled the problem quickly, and without any hassle, but It's a problem that users shouldn't have to experience.
The only benefit of eTap is the ease of installation
The shop I work at, and the framebuilder I work for, have sold approximately 30 eTap bikes/groupsets. I've seen 8 issues with sleeping derailleurs(one groupset had 2 issues). SRAM always handled the problem quickly, and without any hassle, but It's a problem that users shouldn't have to experience.
The only benefit of eTap is the ease of installation
I do like electronic in general but I have found myself having to plug in at the last minute when I finally had some time to ride.
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02-18-19, 11:04 AM
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Seriously though Adventure is touring now and it's how all of us in the industry describe it without losing people's interest. It is touring with pushing the latest tech you can. So yes you will see e-bike carbon wireless touring but we call it "Adventure".
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02-18-19, 11:07 AM
#90
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Oh look strawman argument.
Shifting doesn't have to be 100% reliable, it has to be good enough that for majority of the time it works. No different then mechanical shifter failing once in a blue moon, or you go out and forget to charge your battery with newer ones. Actually that's where SRAM has an advantage. You can swap the batterries and still finish the ride.
Shifting doesn't have to be 100% reliable, it has to be good enough that for majority of the time it works. No different then mechanical shifter failing once in a blue moon, or you go out and forget to charge your battery with newer ones. Actually that's where SRAM has an advantage. You can swap the batterries and still finish the ride.
At first I did not think having multiple batteries was an advantage and I worried about the connection. Then when I actually had a system and saw the robustness of the battery/derailleur connection and the small size and quality build of the battery, I understood the advantage. Then when I compare the size of my Di2 battery to the two eTap batteries, I also like the smaller size. In a Di2 system, the battery is a single point of failure unlike in eTap. That said, in both cases, they are quite reliable.
Just looking at the this post on the bikes that are being ridden by 2019 World Tour teams, I believe pretty much all of them are riding bikes with electronic shifting. That wouldn’t happen if they weren’t reliable. All three suppliers are represented - Shimano (most prevalent), Campy and SRAM.
J
02-18-19, 11:14 AM
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Like I said originally here, If SRAM fixed the sleeping derailleur issue, eTap works well.
02-18-19, 11:21 AM
#92
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Agree. Worth it to note that in the thousands of miles of riding I have done on eTap (or Di2 for that matter), I have never had a missed or incomplete shift. The same is not true of the same many thousands of miles I’ve ridden on mechanical. The most unreliable component in shifting is the rider, and electronic shifting largely removes that variable from the actual act of accomplishing the shift.
At first I did not think having multiple batteries was an advantage and I worried about the connection. Then when I actually had a system and saw the robustness of the battery/derailleur connection and the small size and quality build of the battery, I understood the advantage. Then when I compare the size of my Di2 battery to the two eTap batteries, I also like the smaller size. In a Di2 system, the battery is a single point of failure unlike in eTap. That said, in both cases, they are quite reliable.
Just looking at the this post on the bikes that are being ridden by 2019 World Tour teams, I believe pretty much all of them are riding bikes with electronic shifting. That wouldn’t happen if they weren’t reliable. All three suppliers are represented - Shimano (most prevalent), Campy and SRAM.
J
I appreciate your experience. Many are the same. There are a lot of riders who have loved every minute of their electronic groups.
The most un-reliable part of shifting though is not the rider it's the batteries. The known but not acknowledged rear derailleur issue with eTap will drain your batteries in a couple of rides not to mention that it will "sleep" and just not shift your bike at all until it wakes up some while later and executes all those shifts you gave it before.
2019 "World Teams" as you put it are riding what they got from their sponsors. Most of them go for at least the main guys (smaller teams can still get stuck with MicroShift). Those companies give them what they're riding. In this case reliability isn't as important as people want to believe when they imagine the romantic notion of racing at the top. "Ahhhh they only ride the best and they test this stuff in labs and on the road for years before ever thinking they are good enough to be raced on at the top levels of the sport-" Nope.
They do the testing. Why? because WHEN they have a problem they have 2-3 team cars behind, in front and along side the course with a couple of mechanics and replacement bikes for just about every rider. In some cases the better riders have 3-4 bikes in play along the course. Why? because stuff happens. Now though it's a process of : open the box, remove old part, install new part, send old one back or hand to rep near the start of tomorrow's stage.
So the assertion that it must be reliable because top teams use it is not correct. Also the one that people like to add that things must be the best because the top teams use them. Alas no. The only time that's at play is when it comes to the doctors and the Rx. Otherwise it's a process between sponsorship and the team. Don't take me wrong it's not like it's all crap but there is definitely occasionally crap that makes it through. Just listen to a pro mechanic talk one night. They're like IT guys so they love beer and baked goods so just feed it to them.
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02-18-19, 11:23 AM
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The way that you first described, Di2 would work perfectly as well. the connections aren't fragile like you claimed. The only ones I've seen damaged were from crashes, but those crashes also caused frame and component damage, so the connector wasn't the reason they ended the ride.
Like I said originally here, If SRAM fixed the sleeping derailleur issue, eTap works well.
Like I said originally here, If SRAM fixed the sleeping derailleur issue, eTap works well.
"Thanks for driving 2 hours to come to the race. Next time bring back up wires. "
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02-18-19, 11:34 AM
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Eh...back when everything was external wiring I wrenched on more than one race day bike that sat on the sidelines because a wire was damaged or cut. Usually because of how it was loaded on to a rack on the way to a race, etc.
"Thanks for driving 2 hours to come to the race. Next time bring back up wires. "
"Thanks for driving 2 hours to come to the race. Next time bring back up wires. "
He was claiming that the connectors are fragile
02-18-19, 11:42 AM
#95
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Yeah the external back in the day was really prone to having cuts and issues. Internal is better for them but more of a PITA for me. Spend 40 minutes chasing a wiring setup and testing all connections to isolate an issue the other day. Rider had no idea where the battery was mounted. Took me a while to find it. Problem ended up being a bad wire. ....
....to the rear derail. They still get pinched and cut all the time up here in trainer-landia.
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02-18-19, 11:56 AM
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Yeah the external back in the day was really prone to having cuts and issues. Internal is better for them but more of a PITA for me. Spend 40 minutes chasing a wiring setup and testing all connections to isolate an issue the other day. Rider had no idea where the battery was mounted. Took me a while to find it. Problem ended up being a bad wire. .....
02-18-19, 02:30 PM
#98
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You know what - when I’m putting my bike together in some touring destination airport or hotel, I’m not in a position to track down a wire at some store in some city in which I probably don’t even speak the language. Besides that, I just added hours to go find the part, install it and troubleshoot it. Guess what? I’m on vacation - no desire to do that. And I don’t want to carry a set of spare cables either. This is just much simpler. Especially when given the flawless performance I’ve had.
My LBS, which has serviced a ton of etap bikes hasn’t seen a single “sleeping derailleur”. And mine, which have been through the early life mortality phase of electronics, haven’t ever done anything except operate perfectly. So it’s just not an issue and I don’t anticipate it ever being an one.
But I get it - you don’t like eTap. Don’t use it then. Certainly you can see use cases where it is successful. It certainly must be successful on a market level though - they sell a ton of it. Undeniably, it’s probably the best way to upgrade a frame built for mech with elec shifting. But it’s all terrible - really? In point of fact, this debate is pretty much over because it’s here to stay, it’s well established and well regarded.
The real question is where this thread started - AXS goes in some different directions that may or may not be a good idea. That does remain to be seen.
02-18-19, 02:48 PM
#99
Senior Member
ermmm....few things to note about your post -
I appreciate your experience. Many are the same. There are a lot of riders who have loved every minute of their electronic groups.
The most un-reliable part of shifting though is not the rider it's the batteries. The known but not acknowledged rear derailleur issue with eTap will drain your batteries in a couple of rides not to mention that it will "sleep" and just not shift your bike at all until it wakes up some while later and executes all those shifts you gave it before.
2019 "World Teams" as you put it are riding what they got from their sponsors. Most of them go for at least the main guys (smaller teams can still get stuck with MicroShift). Those companies give them what they're riding. In this case reliability isn't as important as people want to believe when they imagine the romantic notion of racing at the top. "Ahhhh they only ride the best and they test this stuff in labs and on the road for years before ever thinking they are good enough to be raced on at the top levels of the sport-" Nope.
They do the testing. Why? because WHEN they have a problem they have 2-3 team cars behind, in front and along side the course with a couple of mechanics and replacement bikes for just about every rider. In some cases the better riders have 3-4 bikes in play along the course. Why? because stuff happens. Now though it's a process of : open the box, remove old part, install new part, send old one back or hand to rep near the start of tomorrow's stage.
So the assertion that it must be reliable because top teams use it is not correct. Also the one that people like to add that things must be the best because the top teams use them. Alas no. The only time that's at play is when it comes to the doctors and the Rx. Otherwise it's a process between sponsorship and the team. Don't take me wrong it's not like it's all crap but there is definitely occasionally crap that makes it through. Just listen to a pro mechanic talk one night. They're like IT guys so they love beer and baked goods so just feed it to them.
I appreciate your experience. Many are the same. There are a lot of riders who have loved every minute of their electronic groups.
The most un-reliable part of shifting though is not the rider it's the batteries. The known but not acknowledged rear derailleur issue with eTap will drain your batteries in a couple of rides not to mention that it will "sleep" and just not shift your bike at all until it wakes up some while later and executes all those shifts you gave it before.
2019 "World Teams" as you put it are riding what they got from their sponsors. Most of them go for at least the main guys (smaller teams can still get stuck with MicroShift). Those companies give them what they're riding. In this case reliability isn't as important as people want to believe when they imagine the romantic notion of racing at the top. "Ahhhh they only ride the best and they test this stuff in labs and on the road for years before ever thinking they are good enough to be raced on at the top levels of the sport-" Nope.
They do the testing. Why? because WHEN they have a problem they have 2-3 team cars behind, in front and along side the course with a couple of mechanics and replacement bikes for just about every rider. In some cases the better riders have 3-4 bikes in play along the course. Why? because stuff happens. Now though it's a process of : open the box, remove old part, install new part, send old one back or hand to rep near the start of tomorrow's stage.
So the assertion that it must be reliable because top teams use it is not correct. Also the one that people like to add that things must be the best because the top teams use them. Alas no. The only time that's at play is when it comes to the doctors and the Rx. Otherwise it's a process between sponsorship and the team. Don't take me wrong it's not like it's all crap but there is definitely occasionally crap that makes it through. Just listen to a pro mechanic talk one night. They're like IT guys so they love beer and baked goods so just feed it to them.
That all said, if it wasn’t reliable at even a base level, they still wouldn’t use it. You can’t be having continually bike swaps and still expect to be competitive. Conversely, if the stuff was completely unreliable but it was being offered at a high price, they wouldn’t use it either. So money is not the entire answer but it does speak to part of the answer maybe even the largest part but it’s not the whole story. That’s what I was trying to say. There is a base level of reliability that the product has.
02-18-19, 04:59 PM
#100
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Sure - I get it. Money talks and that’s why they use a lot of this stuff.
That all said, if it wasn’t reliable at even a base level, they still wouldn’t use it. You can’t be having continually bike swaps and still expect to be competitive. Conversely, if the stuff was completely unreliable but it was being offered at a high price, they wouldn’t use it either. So money is not the entire answer but it does speak to part of the answer maybe even the largest part but it’s not the whole story. That’s what I was trying to say. There is a base level of reliability that the product has.