New Etap AXS review and pricing
02-14-19, 06:04 PM
#51
Senior Member
That's the genius of the marketing policy. if you want 12 speeds, you need to use one of their 12-speed cassettes, which means you get a 10t, which means you effectively Don't get a 12th cog---the 10t being useless.
To make use og the SRAM 12-speed cassette, you sort of have to go to the smaller chainrings.
The question the becomes, what ration will say, a Shimano 46-30 offer? Seems that set-up would work---same top end, even lower low end than SRAM offers .... but you would still need to by new chain rings. Of course, we don't know if the SRAM front derailleur can handle the 16-t jump.
What's the overall gain? For people who already don't use the 11t cog much, but don't regularly climb mountains ..... I'd say, No Gain. $2500 in parts all told---shifters derailleurs, cassette, rings, tape, cables, battery chargers, whatever .... the rider gets ... a lower bail-out gear.
For that money i'd simply buy a whole new bike with 48-32 up front and a 11-36 out back with a Wolf Tooth road link.
i think the new ETap is built to sell on Bling Appeal, "I've got the latest" appeal, "If I am getting a new bike I might as well" appeal, to people with a Lot of money. I don't see amateur racers laying out that kind of money for at best exceedingly marginal gains in mid-range efficiency---a new set of $2500 wheels which saved a few grams would offer offer more performance gain---and the pros don't care. They just ride whatever they are handed.
All I Really see the new ETap system doing is driving up the top end of the parts price range---allowing manufacturers to sell more useful stuff for more money as well. I don't see old ETap coming down in price at all---I see people starting to consider spending more money becauee compared to the outrageous sticker shock of 12-speed, the rest doesn't seem As outrageous.
Smart retailers might want to stock up on 11-speed Ultegra and 105, both electronic and mechanical, because there is going to be a big market among casual enthusiasts---the one who love to ride but also need to pay for their kids' schooling and save for retirement. In a couple years 11-speed DI2 might be considered standard for folks who love to ride bikes and also have other lives.
To make use og the SRAM 12-speed cassette, you sort of have to go to the smaller chainrings.
The question the becomes, what ration will say, a Shimano 46-30 offer? Seems that set-up would work---same top end, even lower low end than SRAM offers .... but you would still need to by new chain rings. Of course, we don't know if the SRAM front derailleur can handle the 16-t jump.
What's the overall gain? For people who already don't use the 11t cog much, but don't regularly climb mountains ..... I'd say, No Gain. $2500 in parts all told---shifters derailleurs, cassette, rings, tape, cables, battery chargers, whatever .... the rider gets ... a lower bail-out gear.
For that money i'd simply buy a whole new bike with 48-32 up front and a 11-36 out back with a Wolf Tooth road link.
i think the new ETap is built to sell on Bling Appeal, "I've got the latest" appeal, "If I am getting a new bike I might as well" appeal, to people with a Lot of money. I don't see amateur racers laying out that kind of money for at best exceedingly marginal gains in mid-range efficiency---a new set of $2500 wheels which saved a few grams would offer offer more performance gain---and the pros don't care. They just ride whatever they are handed.
All I Really see the new ETap system doing is driving up the top end of the parts price range---allowing manufacturers to sell more useful stuff for more money as well. I don't see old ETap coming down in price at all---I see people starting to consider spending more money becauee compared to the outrageous sticker shock of 12-speed, the rest doesn't seem As outrageous.
Smart retailers might want to stock up on 11-speed Ultegra and 105, both electronic and mechanical, because there is going to be a big market among casual enthusiasts---the one who love to ride but also need to pay for their kids' schooling and save for retirement. In a couple years 11-speed DI2 might be considered standard for folks who love to ride bikes and also have other lives.
Also going to be interesting to see what cassettes they come out with for the Force version of this that is supposed to be available in April. Just looking at both Shimano’s pricing and SRAMs mech pricing - if that is any guide - then it’s about a 30% premium to the red version. Don’t know if they can make that work, but I’d guess they’d have to save most of that money in chainrings and cassettes unless they use a different motor in the RD and FD. I’d also guess that different cassette set ups would be more appropriate for Force than for Red. So maybe that gets some better diversity in gearing too and maybe that picks up some of the 11 cog cassettes.
As for the pricing, I’m guessing that this comes down - that’s pretty pricey and as long as they are selling what limited inventory they have out there, they can get that price. I don’t anticipate that is going to stay.
So what would be interesting to know is if (a) the new crank has the same chainring spacing as 11 speed and (b) if the FD can handle a 16T difference. If so, then there is going to be compatibility with existing cranks and either SRAM or someone then would come up with cassettes that work with that. Otherwise, 10T? Meh. No interest here.
This. At a certain point, one-tooth jumps are too small to be meaningful, so going to two teeth just makes sense. Going to three- (or more) tooth jumps way up the cassette are not much different than single jumps down low.
An 11-34, 12-34, or 12-36 12-speed makes more sense to me--lots of range, small enough jumps, and no need to change the cranks and FD.
An 11-34, 12-34, or 12-36 12-speed makes more sense to me--lots of range, small enough jumps, and no need to change the cranks and FD.
I have standard eTap on one of my bikes and really like it. I put it on a bike that I use for travel and that was previously a mech bike. eTap was a very nice conversion and the lack of cables makes assembly/disassembly of the bike very fast and clean. And I like it’s shifting better than I like the Ui2 of my other bike. Hopefully they didn’t charge off into the weeds and screw all this up. That’s why I’m betting that the AXS FD works fine with 16T difference and with 11 speed chainring spacing. That way if there wasn’t good acceptance of their 10T cassettes they could pivot back to the typical 11 spd set up but adding an extra gear in the spacing to get to 12T. That would be a decent contingency plan - otherwise, I think it’s pretty high risk strategy.
02-15-19, 10:55 AM
#52
Senior Member
I just talked with SRAM tech support - you do need a new crank. The chainring spacing is different and the chainline actually moves inboard. The TD won’t work with a 16T difference (i.e. picking up current 50/34 compact cranks). So.... if you already have a crank based power meter or you don’t want to spring for a crank, this won’t be cost effective and you can’t just upgdrade shifters, RD/FD and cassette. You have to do the full deal.
J.
J.
02-15-19, 11:29 AM
#53
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We just need TREKMOGUL to slap this on one of his 10K bikes and give us a detailed review! He'd probably buy 3 of 'em just to line up all the boxes and take pictures of his "backup" sets 
02-15-19, 12:18 PM
#54
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I just talked with SRAM tech support - you do need a new crank. The chainring spacing is different and the chainline actually moves inboard. The TD won’t work with a 16T difference (i.e. picking up current 50/34 compact cranks). So.... if you already have a crank based power meter or you don’t want to spring for a crank, this won’t be cost effective and you can’t just upgdrade shifters, RD/FD and cassette. You have to do the full deal.
J.
J.
... but thanks very much for the info.
02-15-19, 12:53 PM
#55
SuperGimp
You guys are saying "I don't even want a 10 tooth cog" while ignoring the fact that the largest chainring you can use is only 50 teeth.
The people for whom this is attractive are the same people who buy 10-15,000 dollar bikes. Ie, not very many of us.
I love the logic though - we've shrunk the chain but by making it ugly it's just as strong. Uh, no... I don't believe it for a second. 8 spd > 9 spd > 10 spd > 11 spd and now the math is changing? Unlikely.
The people for whom this is attractive are the same people who buy 10-15,000 dollar bikes. Ie, not very many of us.
I love the logic though - we've shrunk the chain but by making it ugly it's just as strong. Uh, no... I don't believe it for a second. 8 spd > 9 spd > 10 spd > 11 spd and now the math is changing? Unlikely.
02-15-19, 01:44 PM
#56
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It makes sense to me that the side plates would be stronger with the added material. We shall see how it works out in real life.
02-15-19, 04:13 PM
#57
Senior Member
You guys are saying "I don't even want a 10 tooth cog" while ignoring the fact that the largest chainring you can use is only 50 teeth.
The people for whom this is attractive are the same people who buy 10-15,000 dollar bikes. Ie, not very many of us.
I love the logic though - we've shrunk the chain but by making it ugly it's just as strong. Uh, no... I don't believe it for a second. 8 spd > 9 spd > 10 spd > 11 spd and now the math is changing? Unlikely.
The people for whom this is attractive are the same people who buy 10-15,000 dollar bikes. Ie, not very many of us.
I love the logic though - we've shrunk the chain but by making it ugly it's just as strong. Uh, no... I don't believe it for a second. 8 spd > 9 spd > 10 spd > 11 spd and now the math is changing? Unlikely.
But the fix is relatively straigthforward. They can fix the FD cage to go to 16 teeth and they can come up with a range of cassettes that are similar to the ranges out there today in the 11-xx choice available. They can do the same with the chainrings to get them back to 53/39 or 50/34.
But this all trickles down and that is the message they are sending with the eTap Force being announced in April. That will go for the $4-7K bikes that are much higher volume and affordable.
I agree, it is a sort of vanity/luxury offering. not sure how to make the benefits trickle down to lower price points, though .... people will still have to replace their entire group sets to put this on a bike, no matter how inexpensive the lower-level offerings might be. Possibly SRAM is not planning to sell many, but does plan to offer a few lower-cost versions with mass appeal where it plans to make money once the idea catches on. Possibly SRAM pans to offer lower-level versions to manufacturers at a really good price, because once you buy a bike with this gar, you are stuck forever buying SRAM replacement pats.
02-15-19, 05:35 PM
#58
SuperGimp
I get it, you guys don't want a 10 tooth cog. This groupset is not targeting customers like you! Or me, really, even though I wouldn't mind a higher gear. 52x11 is probably adequate and I'm not racing. 5k for a groupset, ouch.
5k for a groupset, ouch.
02-16-19, 12:03 PM
#59
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Timely thread - am looking to get a superbike for myself to commemorate a key life event later this year, and was thinking of eTap 11 vs 12. I didnt realize AXS was such a proprietary system: and yes, that is a deal breaker for me.
I wonder - assuming Shimano and Campy do go the 12 gear route down the road, will that increase compatibility across brands?
I wonder - assuming Shimano and Campy do go the 12 gear route down the road, will that increase compatibility across brands?
02-16-19, 01:29 PM
#60
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Shimano would have to redo its entire line of crank sets---would have to set up whole new production lines just for the DI3-12 (or whatever they call it.) For SRAM, smaller volume, and since this is their Big Gamble flagship product .... their Bugatti Veyron or Lambo Murcielago .... they are going all-out and charging all-out prices.
Not sure Shimano would invest in such a limited market with a product which didn't work with their other stuff--and was second to the table. After all, if you want the lightest, sexiest group set you go Red. Dura-Ace is maybe more practical but if the few grams matter ... or you want to show off ....even if it is only image .... you go Red.
Shimano could instead offer the kinds of cassettes we have been discussing above---11-32 with a lot of single jumps, or 11-36 spaced like 11-28. There are a Lot more bikes out there with Shimano running gear, and a lot of it isn't top of the line. To capture the upgrade market, Shimano would have to offer 12-speed which worked with pretty much everything---Sora and up, at least. I think Shimano would get a Lot of sales from people willing to buy "upgrade" group sets---brifters, rear derailleur, cassette, chain---if there was any way the 12-speed cassette fit on 9-10-11 freehubs.
One benefit there for Shimano is that people would have to choose. And anyone looking to upgrade, would probably stay with Shimano because they wouldn't need to change everything all at once. (I'd bet an 11-speed derailleur would handle 12-speed well enough. After all, the derailleur just moves whatever amount the cable is pulled.) Also, the less Shimano had to redesign and retool, the cheaper it could offer its 12-speed systems to manufacturers---and once somebody got a mid-range bike ( a Tiagra- or 105-equipped bike) with Shimano 12-speed they'd likely stick with Shimano and upgrade, rather than buy a whole new drive train.
Shimano could in effect squeeze SRAM into almost exclusively the exclusivity market---the Big Bling bike market, and shut them out of most of the rest by being ubiquitous---all the affordable 12-speed stuff would be Shimano.
02-16-19, 05:29 PM
#61
Senior Member
If Shimano went with a 12 speed wireless system upgrade system (shifters, FD, RD and cassette) that worked with current 11 speed cranks and needed only new 12 speed cassettes they’d have a winner. SRAM picked up a lot of mech to elect conversions with eTap because the wire routing in a bike that isn’t set up for elec is just awful. Very clean to go elec on a mech frame with eTap.
02-17-19, 08:39 AM
#62
Senior Member
To be honest, i think the whole wireless thing is silly. It should not be a consideration at all. Imagine your car having a battery powered wireless gear shifter or turn signal switch or brake lights. If anything SRAM should make theirs wired and all of them should implement a small dynamo to power the systems. The power to drive it is minute and it would likely be lighter than having batteries and voltage regulators in every unit.
Last edited by Racing Dan; 02-17-19 at 08:42 AM.
02-17-19, 08:59 AM
#64
Senior Member
Imo - Even if it worked (Im sure it does), its still silly having batteries in every unit because you cant be bothered running a wire. As i said, its like have the brake lights on your car run on batteries.
02-17-19, 09:04 AM
#65
Senior Member
02-17-19, 11:09 AM
#67
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People upset about wireless ... how many have actually tried it?
I could complain about battery-powered lights on bikes----if you want lights, use a generator hub, right? And certainly a Computer has no place on a Bicycle, right? I think these are people with very limited views of what maker a "proper" bicycle---which is fine---but you guys look sort of silly. " I never needed "gears" on my pennyfarthing!"
As for the people saying that the batteries are the issue---i am sure you don't use computers, or battery-powered light son your bike, right? How about your wristwatch?
And ... why the hatred for batteries if electrical devices on bikes are otherwise all right?
That is why the automobile analogy is meaningless---the car doesn't need a battery---Except to Start. Take yours out and try it. It runs fine with no battery .... After you start it. So, essentially, every electrical system on your car Needs the battery. Doubt that? Pull the battery.
Bikes, of course, don't generally have generators, which tend to be heavy. Cars do.
Of course, the idea that using a generator and running wires would be better ... depends. Can you Prove that the weight would be lower? Would the system work better?
In any case .... If you really think it matters, Make the System. Sell the electricals ... the switching box, the routing box, the voltage regulators, .... and the battery. You do realize, I hope, that you would need Some storage or you would lose the ability to shift when you stopped rolling, and would have less ability to shift as you slowed ... lower output from the generator. I guess maybe capacitors? That's okay, because they are not "batteries."
Ineresting bit I found here ( ) “If you’ve ever picked up a dynamo hub and tried to spin the axle, you’ll know that they feel incredibly ‘notchy’. This is the result of a series of powerful magnets passing a coil and in turn, creating an electric charge. Interestingly, dynamo hub drag only has a small effect on your speed because of the flywheel effect of a rotating wheel. In THIS article, I calculated the drag to result in an extra three to six minutes riding time over 100km, all while getting a good charge to your electronics (or powering your lights).”
Also … “Shimano makes the majority of the world’s dynamo hubs, so it’s safe to say that they know a thing or two about them. The lab testing shows 0.50w-2.50w drag (@ 10-30km/h) when a light is switched off, and 3.50w-7.50w drag when a light is switched on.”
Nothing is free.
By the way, this thread is about 12-speed ... not about whether people felt the need for (or were irrationally irritated by) electronic shifting. If you want to rant about the evils of electronic shifting, please do---in another thread. Maybe a lot of people would agree with you. Who knows? Test ti and find out.
I could complain about battery-powered lights on bikes----if you want lights, use a generator hub, right? And certainly a Computer has no place on a Bicycle, right? I think these are people with very limited views of what maker a "proper" bicycle---which is fine---but you guys look sort of silly. " I never needed "gears" on my pennyfarthing!"
As for the people saying that the batteries are the issue---i am sure you don't use computers, or battery-powered light son your bike, right? How about your wristwatch?
And ... why the hatred for batteries if electrical devices on bikes are otherwise all right?
That is why the automobile analogy is meaningless---the car doesn't need a battery---Except to Start. Take yours out and try it. It runs fine with no battery .... After you start it. So, essentially, every electrical system on your car Needs the battery. Doubt that? Pull the battery.
Bikes, of course, don't generally have generators, which tend to be heavy. Cars do.
Of course, the idea that using a generator and running wires would be better ... depends. Can you Prove that the weight would be lower? Would the system work better?
In any case .... If you really think it matters, Make the System. Sell the electricals ... the switching box, the routing box, the voltage regulators, .... and the battery. You do realize, I hope, that you would need Some storage or you would lose the ability to shift when you stopped rolling, and would have less ability to shift as you slowed ... lower output from the generator. I guess maybe capacitors? That's okay, because they are not "batteries."
Ineresting bit I found here ( ) “If you’ve ever picked up a dynamo hub and tried to spin the axle, you’ll know that they feel incredibly ‘notchy’. This is the result of a series of powerful magnets passing a coil and in turn, creating an electric charge. Interestingly, dynamo hub drag only has a small effect on your speed because of the flywheel effect of a rotating wheel. In THIS article, I calculated the drag to result in an extra three to six minutes riding time over 100km, all while getting a good charge to your electronics (or powering your lights).”
Also … “Shimano makes the majority of the world’s dynamo hubs, so it’s safe to say that they know a thing or two about them. The lab testing shows 0.50w-2.50w drag (@ 10-30km/h) when a light is switched off, and 3.50w-7.50w drag when a light is switched on.”
Nothing is free.
By the way, this thread is about 12-speed ... not about whether people felt the need for (or were irrationally irritated by) electronic shifting. If you want to rant about the evils of electronic shifting, please do---in another thread. Maybe a lot of people would agree with you. Who knows? Test ti and find out.
02-17-19, 11:18 AM
#68
Non omnino gravis
Agreeing with the above post, I think the Venn overlap of "Bikes with 12-speed wireless shifting" and "Bikes with dynamo hubs" may well be non-existent.
I know that for me, with any cost issues aside, any bike I built with the intention of wireless shifting would be very different from one built for a dynamo. I doubt there is a long list of tourers out there using eTap.
I know that for me, with any cost issues aside, any bike I built with the intention of wireless shifting would be very different from one built for a dynamo. I doubt there is a long list of tourers out there using eTap.
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02-17-19, 11:31 AM
#69
Senior Member
Agreeing with the above post, I think the Venn overlap of "Bikes with 12-speed wireless shifting" and "Bikes with dynamo hubs" may well be non-existent.
I know that for me, with any cost issues aside, any bike I built with the intention of wireless shifting would be very different from one built for a dynamo. I doubt there is a long list of tourers out there using eTap.
I know that for me, with any cost issues aside, any bike I built with the intention of wireless shifting would be very different from one built for a dynamo. I doubt there is a long list of tourers out there using eTap.
02-17-19, 11:47 AM
#70
Senior Member
"“Shimano makes the majority of the world’s dynamo hubs, so it’s safe to say that they know a thing or two about them. The lab testing shows 0.50w-2.50w drag (@ 10-30km/h) when a light is switched off, and 3.50w-7.50w drag when a light is switched on.”"
Such a giant dynamo would not be needed. A DI2 battery i 3.7 Wh and most often users report more than 1000 miles between charges. Assuming an average speed of, say, 20 mph, thats a 50 hour charge life. 3.7/50 = 0.074 W average power.
Such a giant dynamo would not be needed. A DI2 battery i 3.7 Wh and most often users report more than 1000 miles between charges. Assuming an average speed of, say, 20 mph, thats a 50 hour charge life. 3.7/50 = 0.074 W average power.
02-17-19, 01:52 PM
#71
Non omnino gravis
No, what I’m saying is the guy that spends $300 to shave 100g isn’t going to put a dynamo on the bike, unless the dynamo has negative weight. Just as a guy who tours for several months at a time isn’t going to favor derailleurs that need to be recharged.
02-17-19, 02:18 PM
#72
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Anyone who is going to put a dynamo on a bike is likely not going to want a dynamo for the shifter---and batteries for the lights. Anyone running without lights is likely a higher-performance rider who would go for the lowest weight, regardless of some other person's aversion to batteries---or just some batteries.
As @DrIsotope notes the Venn diagrams of people using electronic shifting and no lights and the people who would opt for a dynamo hub (barring any proof that ultra-light in-pulley dynamos actually exist) don't overlap.
And really ... what we have here is an irrational hatred of batteries.
I don't have electronic shifting because of the cost---I cannot justify buying a whole drive train when all my bikes run well enough already. Also, though, I use two battery-powered headlights (not usually both at once,) two battery-powered tail lights (again, not usually together,) and my phone as GPS---also battery-powered. And somehow, I survive.
Pretty sure a DI2 setup wouldn't be the fatal blow.
02-17-19, 02:24 PM
#73
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Shoot...the touring segment hasn't even reliably embraced brifters, yet. Although the bikepacking segment is another matter.
02-17-19, 02:25 PM
#74
Non omnino gravis
I too have no aversion to batteries-- quite the opposite, in fact-- to the point that my bike workstation has a 10-port USB charger under it. My aversion to eTap or even Di2 is simply the cost.
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