Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Same Wattage: Headwind vs Tailwind

Search
Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Same Wattage: Headwind vs Tailwind

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 05-15-25 | 04:07 PM
  #76  
spelger's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,674
Likes: 1,387
From: reno, nv

Bikes: yes, i have one

Yikes, my bad.
spelger is offline  
Reply
Old 05-15-25 | 04:25 PM
  #77  
Senior Member
15 Anniversary
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8,153
Likes: 11,093

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Originally Posted by spelger
assuming none peddles won't they both just have the same acceleration? the only acceleration i can think of is gravity, also assuming they both experience the same effect due to wind.
The acceleration depends on all the forces acting the riders, including gravity, rolling resistance, and aerodynamic drag.
tomato coupe is offline  
Reply
Old 05-15-25 | 05:46 PM
  #78  
PeteHski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Joined: May 2021
Posts: 11,620
Likes: 7,017
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
The acceleration depends on all the forces acting the riders, including gravity, rolling resistance, and aerodynamic drag.
In other words the net force acting down the slope. Not just the force of gravity. Heavier riders generate a higher net force on a similar bike.

PeteHski is offline  
Reply
Old 05-16-25 | 07:32 AM
  #79  
spelger's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,674
Likes: 1,387
From: reno, nv

Bikes: yes, i have one

Originally Posted by tomato coupe
The acceleration depends on all the forces acting the riders, including gravity, rolling resistance, and aerodynamic drag.
free body diagram and all that. college physics was a long time ago.
spelger is offline  
Reply
Old 05-16-25 | 09:22 AM
  #80  
mstateglfr's Avatar
Sunshine
 
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 18,706
Likes: 10,240
From: Des Moines, IA

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Originally Posted by Bassmanbob
So if it's the same power the cyclist is creating, shouldn't it feel the same whether there is a head vs tailwind?
no
mstateglfr is offline  
Reply
Old 05-16-25 | 10:06 AM
  #81  
Senior Member
15 Anniversary
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8,153
Likes: 11,093

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Originally Posted by Bassmanbob
So if it's the same power the cyclist is creating, shouldn't it feel the same whether there is a head vs tailwind?
Originally Posted by mstateglfr
no
Maybe I'm an outlier, but constant power all feels the same to me*, as long as I can do it at a comfortable cadence.

* with respect to perceived effort.
tomato coupe is offline  
Reply
Old 05-16-25 | 10:08 AM
  #82  
noglider's Avatar
aka Tom Reingold
Titanium Club Membership
15 Anniversary
Community Builder
Community Influencer
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 44,199
Likes: 6,440
From: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Originally Posted by Bassmanbob
But that's my question. Riding the SAME POWER, for example 180 watts in a headwind vs. 180 watts in a tailwind. It may be all in my head, but forget speed, it feels more taxing to my legs with the headwind than tailwind with the same wattage output.
I have a theory, and I have not studied physics formally, so it could be way off. I suspect the difference is that the force required is closer to constant throughout the circle of the pedal stroke whereas without a headwind, you can apply less force in the dead parts of the stroke. Does that make sense? In other words, there is a sine wave graph of the power input into the pedals, and it's flatter when riding into a headwind. Watts averaged over small intervals will be higher. I can't express this properly but maybe you get the idea.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Reply
Old 05-16-25 | 10:27 AM
  #83  
Senior Member
15 Anniversary
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8,153
Likes: 11,093

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Originally Posted by noglider
I have a theory, and I have not studied physics formally, so it could be way off. I suspect the difference is that the force required is closer to constant throughout the circle of the pedal stroke whereas without a headwind, you can apply less force in the dead parts of the stroke. Does that make sense? In other words, there is a sine wave graph of the power input into the pedals, and it's flatter when riding into a headwind. Watts averaged over small intervals will be higher. I can't express this properly but maybe you get the idea.
Why would the forces be less in different parts of the pedal stroke?
tomato coupe is offline  
Reply
Old 05-16-25 | 10:54 AM
  #84  
Perceptual Dullard
15 Anniversary
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 1,754
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Why would the forces be less in different parts of the pedal stroke?

RChung is offline  
Reply
Old 05-16-25 | 11:04 AM
  #85  
genejockey's Avatar
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Titanium Club Membership
15 Anniversary
Community Builder
Community Influencer
 
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 23,635
Likes: 17,101
From: SF Bay Area

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Originally Posted by RChung
I has questions.

Why is the black curve higher average watts but lower % VO2 max?

Does "one leg" mean pedaling with one leg, or pedaling with two legs but only measuring one?

Does a nonzero torque at 200 degrees (20 degrees past BDC) imply pulling up?
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is offline  
Reply
Old 05-16-25 | 11:25 AM
  #86  
Senior Member
15 Anniversary
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8,153
Likes: 11,093

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Originally Posted by RChung
That's the force (torque) produced by the rider. The question is why would less force be required during different parts of the pedal stroke, i.e. why would the external forces (rolling resistance, aero drag, etc.) vary with pedal position.

I suspect the difference is that the force required is closer to constant throughout the circle of the pedal stroke whereas without a headwind, you can apply less force in the dead parts of the stroke.

tomato coupe is offline  
Reply
Old 05-16-25 | 11:46 AM
  #87  
Perceptual Dullard
15 Anniversary
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 1,754
Originally Posted by genejockey
I has questions.
I've slightly re-ordered your question.

Does "one leg" mean pedaling with one leg, or pedaling with two legs but only measuring one?
Only one leg was measured.

Does a nonzero torque at 200 degrees (20 degrees past BDC) imply pulling up?
Yes.

Why is the black curve higher average watts but lower % VO2 max?
There are two possible explanations. First, L/R asymmetry presumably varies with power so although single-leg power wasn't much differernt, total power could have been; but, second, since total combined power of both legs wasn't measured, it could be that pulling up was so much more taxing on this particular rider that his economy was way lower. Or some combo of both.
RChung is offline  
Reply
Old 05-16-25 | 11:48 AM
  #88  
Perceptual Dullard
15 Anniversary
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 1,754
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
That's the force (torque) produced by the rider. The question is why would less force be required during different parts of the pedal stroke, i.e. why would the external forces (rolling resistance, aero drag, etc.) vary with pedal position.
Good point. There are minor differences in aero drag between having your legs at 3/9 o'clock vs. 6/12 o'clock (which we can spot if you're trying to estimate CdA by coasting) but, absent that, the demand side should be the same.

OTOH, if you're pedaling, the crank inertial load can be different, so you could (probably do) produce different forces around the pedal stroke.

[Edited to add] But to get back to the OP's original question, we know that riding indoors and outdoors feels different, even at the same power. The main differences are differences in crank inertial load and cooling. It seems reasonable to me that X watts in a headwind will feel different than X watts in a tailwind because I've perceived differences indoors and out.

Last edited by RChung; 05-16-25 at 11:53 AM.
RChung is offline  
Reply
Old 05-16-25 | 01:04 PM
  #89  
terrymorse's Avatar
climber has-been
Titanium Club Membership
20 Anniversary
Community Builder
Community Influencer
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,150
Likes: 6,046
From: Palo Alto, CA

Bikes: Scott Addict RC Pro & R1, Felt Z1

Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Why would the forces be less in different parts of the pedal stroke?
Monentum loss during the low torque part of the pedal cycle. Which then has to be recovered with more pedal torque.

This is most pronounced when doing low cadence up a steep grade. It can feel like the bike stops at the bottom of the pedal stroke.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse


terrymorse is offline  
Reply
Old 05-16-25 | 01:17 PM
  #90  
Senior Member
15 Anniversary
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8,153
Likes: 11,093

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Originally Posted by terrymorse
Monentum loss during the low torque part of the pedal cycle. Which then has to be recovered with more pedal torque.

This is most pronounced when doing low cadence up a steep grade. It can feel like the bike stops at the bottom of the pedal stroke.
Okay, but I think the assumption is that the two cases involve the same power and cadence.
tomato coupe is offline  
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.