Hookless Rims for Road Bikes - A scam?
07-26-25 | 02:45 PM
#76
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 10,383
Likes: 14,926
I looked at the hookless ETRTO test and it's basically that a tire on a hookless rim must withstand 110% of the indicated max pressure (max 5 bar) for 10 minutes without blowing off to be deemed safe.
With regular clinchers I remember reading somewhere that the tire must withstand 150-200 % of the indicated max in order to be deemed safe.
With regular clinchers I remember reading somewhere that the tire must withstand 150-200 % of the indicated max in order to be deemed safe.
During last weekend's gravel race, at one point on a descent I hit a rock so hard that my front tire bottomed out on the rim. I was worried about the tire, but it held air just fine for the remaining 110 miles. If I'd been on hookless rims, would the tire have blown off? It seems (to my non-physicist brain) that such a momentary force could effectively spike the psi beyond the safety threshold. In that case, I would very much prefer hooked rims.
__________________
07-26-25 | 02:52 PM
#77
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 12,778
Likes: 4,884
What is the impact (albeit momentarily) of a hard jolt on effective psi? And will that matter in the real world?
During last weekend's gravel race, at one point on a descent I hit a rock so hard that my front tire bottomed out on the rim. I was worried about the tire, but it held air just fine for the remaining 110 miles. If I'd been on hookless rims, would the tire have blown off? It seems (to my non-physicist brain) that such a momentary force could effectively spike the psi beyond the safety threshold. In that case, I would very much prefer hooked rims.
During last weekend's gravel race, at one point on a descent I hit a rock so hard that my front tire bottomed out on the rim. I was worried about the tire, but it held air just fine for the remaining 110 miles. If I'd been on hookless rims, would the tire have blown off? It seems (to my non-physicist brain) that such a momentary force could effectively spike the psi beyond the safety threshold. In that case, I would very much prefer hooked rims.
But an added +10% pressure from bottoming out seems unlikely.
08-09-25 | 04:34 PM
#78
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 2,391
Likes: 662
From: Québec, Canada
Bikes: Tarmac SL8, Pink Lady Crux, TCR Beater
Plot twist: the ''actual'' pressure threshold is not the one indicated on the rim and/or tire. Hookless rims & tire setups are often tested at much higher pressures to simulate these situations (hitting a pothole, etc.) and make sure they stay safe.
08-09-25 | 05:43 PM
#79
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 12,778
Likes: 4,884
If blowoff pressure is said to be 10% above stated maximum pressure, what are you talking about?
08-10-25 | 09:43 AM
#81
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8,290
Likes: 11,380
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
By itself, it likely wouldn't be an issue. But, combined with the fact that the pressure gauges on run-of-the-mill bike pumps aren't very accurate, it could be.
08-11-25 | 05:12 AM
#82
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,925
Likes: 530
From: Turku, Finland, Europe
Bikes: 2011 Specialized crux comp, 2013 Specialized Rockhopper Pro
Hand held pressure gauges are one solution but how does one verify their accuracy? They're also somewhat delicate. I dropped my Accu-Gage and it went off calibration. Was useless after that.
With all that in mind I'd rather have a lot of safety margin instead of very little safety margin.
08-11-25 | 07:57 AM
#83
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 2,391
Likes: 662
From: Québec, Canada
Bikes: Tarmac SL8, Pink Lady Crux, TCR Beater
08-11-25 | 08:21 AM
#84
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 12,778
Likes: 4,884
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/ca/hookless-technology
If YOU want to ride hookless at over recommended pressure, sounds like you should go with Giant rims and matching tires, because Giant is not claiming this is safe in general but just with their product. And actually, Giant isn't claiming you can ride 72 psi, just that they did tests above that pressure without anyone riding.
08-11-25 | 09:30 AM
#85
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,703
Likes: 2,290
As the doomsayers and chicken littles are predicting death and carnage on our streets, the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of hookless riders are out there enjoying their bikes and doing epic things. The incidents of blowoff of a properly installed hookless tire system are effectively unheard of. The typical skeptics are at a greater risk of spontaneous combustion while sitting in their recliners.
08-11-25 | 09:57 AM
#86
As the doomsayers and chicken littles are predicting death and carnage on our streets, the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of hookless riders are out there enjoying their bikes and doing epic things. The incidents of blowoff of a properly installed hookless tire system are effectively unheard of. The typical skeptics are at a greater risk of spontaneous combustion while sitting in their recliners.
Road tires with a 10-psi safety margin on hookless version 2: that's idiocy.
08-11-25 | 10:54 AM
#87
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,925
Likes: 530
From: Turku, Finland, Europe
Bikes: 2011 Specialized crux comp, 2013 Specialized Rockhopper Pro
As the doomsayers and chicken littles are predicting death and carnage on our streets, the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of hookless riders are out there enjoying their bikes and doing epic things. The incidents of blowoff of a properly installed hookless tire system are effectively unheard of. The typical skeptics are at a greater risk of spontaneous combustion while sitting in their recliners.
Now I'm sure you wouldn't claim that the reported blowoffs were due to user error, because that would be a "no true scotsman".
08-11-25 | 10:59 AM
#88
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,873
Likes: 869
About once per week in the shop we experience a massive explosion that leaves us dazed with our ears ringing for an hour afterwards. Hookless.
08-11-25 | 12:53 PM
#89
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,703
Likes: 2,290
Well the tricky thing is that we don't know the incidence rate. But I do recall that there have been even some reports here on this very forum. So it's not like it's unheard of. There were also a few interesting freak crashes on this year's TdF, but who knows about those. What is known though is that the safety margin of ETRTO for hookless rims is pretty narrow.
Now I'm sure you wouldn't claim that the reported blowoffs were due to user error, because that would be a "no true scotsman".
Now I'm sure you wouldn't claim that the reported blowoffs were due to user error, because that would be a "no true scotsman".
08-12-25 | 12:45 AM
#90
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,925
Likes: 530
From: Turku, Finland, Europe
Bikes: 2011 Specialized crux comp, 2013 Specialized Rockhopper Pro
But then there's the substantial mitigating factors. I don't understand what you mean by this and what is considered substantial?
In any case the safety margins are way too tight. With hookless rims it would seem that a difference of 1mm in tire width is the difference between make it or break it. A 10% pressure safety margin is something you can exceed when you go from an air conditioned garage to ride in hot weather on hot asphalt. Especially if your pump gauge is inaccurate. Also, that 5 bar max pressure is too low for heavier riders in any case.
Just compare against the amount of leeway you have with hooked rims in both tire size and tire pressure.
08-12-25 | 03:39 AM
#91
What do we consider properly reported incidents? Officially registered accidents? race crashes? If so, then there are very few tire incidents overall. If we however accept anecdotes, there's plenty to be found with a fairly short search of the other cycling forums.
But then there's the substantial mitigating factors. I don't understand what you mean by this and what is considered substantial?
In any case the safety margins are way too tight. With hookless rims it would seem that a difference of 1mm in tire width is the difference between make it or break it. A 10% pressure safety margin is something you can exceed when you go from an air conditioned garage to ride in hot weather on hot asphalt. Especially if your pump gauge is inaccurate. Also, that 5 bar max pressure is too low for heavier riders in any case.
Just compare against the amount of leeway you have with hooked rims in both tire size and tire pressure.
But then there's the substantial mitigating factors. I don't understand what you mean by this and what is considered substantial?
In any case the safety margins are way too tight. With hookless rims it would seem that a difference of 1mm in tire width is the difference between make it or break it. A 10% pressure safety margin is something you can exceed when you go from an air conditioned garage to ride in hot weather on hot asphalt. Especially if your pump gauge is inaccurate. Also, that 5 bar max pressure is too low for heavier riders in any case.
Just compare against the amount of leeway you have with hooked rims in both tire size and tire pressure.
Here's an exchange from this previous thread. PsImet2001's attitude toward hookless was neutral at first but changed after he found that none of the rim and tire manufacturers whose representatives he interviewed were able to articulate convincing arguments in favor of hookless rims for consumers. The only clear advantages were greatly reduced cost and increased profit margins for the manufacturers.
You just touched on why they "work" over there= 15 psi. The issue isn't about burping on road it's quite literally about tires being blown off the rim. Its the other end of the spectrum.
The most troubling thing for me is that the parts of the industry that will talk about it openly just use in house rules of 150% of target pressure. That's a 1.5 safety factor. That's the LOWEST safety factor I have ever run into in my engineering life. Especially in a consumer product.
The worst part is that not everyone even agrees on going that "high". Hushed anecdotes say some OE's have been fine with 1.2-1.3.
Think about that: If they are rating a particular tire and rim combo to 70 psi then that means they have experienced blow off at 84 psi.
Keep in mind that even all these years after we went to "wider" 23mm rims (13 years ago) we are still having an impossible time convincing people not to ride pressures in the 115 psi range for road.
Old habits die hard. This is an absolute recipe for more than a handful of deaths. Also...84psi? how accurate is your crappy pump that you've used for 15 years? I've run across new *redacted* pump gauges that are as much as 15-20 psi off at lower pressures.
The most troubling thing for me is that the parts of the industry that will talk about it openly just use in house rules of 150% of target pressure. That's a 1.5 safety factor. That's the LOWEST safety factor I have ever run into in my engineering life. Especially in a consumer product.
The worst part is that not everyone even agrees on going that "high". Hushed anecdotes say some OE's have been fine with 1.2-1.3.
Think about that: If they are rating a particular tire and rim combo to 70 psi then that means they have experienced blow off at 84 psi.
Keep in mind that even all these years after we went to "wider" 23mm rims (13 years ago) we are still having an impossible time convincing people not to ride pressures in the 115 psi range for road.
Old habits die hard. This is an absolute recipe for more than a handful of deaths. Also...84psi? how accurate is your crappy pump that you've used for 15 years? I've run across new *redacted* pump gauges that are as much as 15-20 psi off at lower pressures.
08-12-25 | 06:19 AM
#92
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 2,391
Likes: 662
From: Québec, Canada
Bikes: Tarmac SL8, Pink Lady Crux, TCR Beater
I would tend to agree with you.
Then again, tire pressure calculators are subjective and vary.
If I use the Silca one, my recommended pressure is around 75PSI. If I use the Giant one (Tire Pressure | Giant Bicycles), it's 65PSI. Giant has a ''hookless specific'' tire pressure calculator and factors in the inner rim width, while the Silca doesn't.
Who's right, who's wrong? I'm sure some of you will say that Giant's pressure calculator is full of crap and only meant to help sell their products. At 170lbs, I used their hookless wheels for several seasons inflated at 65PSI on 28mm tubeless tires and never had any issues. Roads are in bad condition overall where I live and I hit tons of potholes. They felt as firm as my current setup (hooked rims & 28mm tubeless tires) inflated at 75PSI.
Then again, tire pressure calculators are subjective and vary.
If I use the Silca one, my recommended pressure is around 75PSI. If I use the Giant one (Tire Pressure | Giant Bicycles), it's 65PSI. Giant has a ''hookless specific'' tire pressure calculator and factors in the inner rim width, while the Silca doesn't.
Who's right, who's wrong? I'm sure some of you will say that Giant's pressure calculator is full of crap and only meant to help sell their products. At 170lbs, I used their hookless wheels for several seasons inflated at 65PSI on 28mm tubeless tires and never had any issues. Roads are in bad condition overall where I live and I hit tons of potholes. They felt as firm as my current setup (hooked rims & 28mm tubeless tires) inflated at 75PSI.
08-12-25 | 07:08 AM
#93
I would tend to agree with you.
Then again, tire pressure calculators are subjective and vary.
If I use the Silca one, my recommended pressure is around 75PSI. If I use the Giant one (Tire Pressure | Giant Bicycles), it's 65PSI. Giant has a ''hookless specific'' tire pressure calculator and factors in the inner rim width, while the Silca doesn't.
Who's right, who's wrong? I'm sure some of you will say that Giant's pressure calculator is full of crap and only meant to help sell their products. At 170lbs, I used their hookless wheels for several seasons inflated at 65PSI on 28mm tubeless tires and never had any issues. Roads are in bad condition overall where I live and I hit tons of potholes. They felt as firm as my current setup (hooked rims & 28mm tubeless tires) inflated at 75PSI.
Then again, tire pressure calculators are subjective and vary.
If I use the Silca one, my recommended pressure is around 75PSI. If I use the Giant one (Tire Pressure | Giant Bicycles), it's 65PSI. Giant has a ''hookless specific'' tire pressure calculator and factors in the inner rim width, while the Silca doesn't.
Who's right, who's wrong? I'm sure some of you will say that Giant's pressure calculator is full of crap and only meant to help sell their products. At 170lbs, I used their hookless wheels for several seasons inflated at 65PSI on 28mm tubeless tires and never had any issues. Roads are in bad condition overall where I live and I hit tons of potholes. They felt as firm as my current setup (hooked rims & 28mm tubeless tires) inflated at 75PSI.
What gets me is that hookless rims for road bikes had disappeared from the market entirely by the early or mid-'80's thanks to the obvious increase in safety at high pressures seen with hooked rims. Hookless for road bikes didn't return until carbon rims became fashionable and manufacturers discovered how complicated and expensive the tech would be.
Cutting through the claims of, e.g., 15 grams of weight saving from losing the hook, DT has said that they plan to continue manufacturing hooked carbon road rims for the foreseeable future because they don't mind spending the money required for production of those rims.
08-12-25 | 07:25 AM
#94
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 3,922
Likes: 1,509
From: UK
And people don’t mind paying more for them. Like me.
08-12-25 | 08:27 AM
#95
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 12,778
Likes: 4,884
A lot of this comes back to "Why?"
Why are you, 50 year old club rider guy, so obsessed with claims of fractional performance gains that you gave up on both flexibility snd safety to buy hookless rims?
They aren't going to cause you to win anything you wouldn't otherwise, but now you can't even ride home on a borrowed clincher and tube.
Why are you, 50 year old club rider guy, so obsessed with claims of fractional performance gains that you gave up on both flexibility snd safety to buy hookless rims?
They aren't going to cause you to win anything you wouldn't otherwise, but now you can't even ride home on a borrowed clincher and tube.
Last edited by Kontact; 08-12-25 at 08:56 AM.
08-12-25 | 09:11 AM
#96
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8,290
Likes: 11,380
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
08-12-25 | 09:41 AM
#97
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 2,391
Likes: 662
From: Québec, Canada
Bikes: Tarmac SL8, Pink Lady Crux, TCR Beater
Do people really buy hookless rims because of performance gain? Around me (including myself), people are using hookless rims simply because that's what came with their out-of-the-box bikes.
When I was riding hookless rims and had flats, I would just put in a tube and continue my ride. No one I know carries a spare tire (clincher or tubeless) when riding...
When I was riding hookless rims and had flats, I would just put in a tube and continue my ride. No one I know carries a spare tire (clincher or tubeless) when riding...
08-12-25 | 12:09 PM
#99
Sunshine
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 18,752
Likes: 10,314
From: Des Moines, IA
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
And along that line, I think they would question how likely it is that people will tear a tire beyond boot repairability in a place that is anywhere near a bike shop.
^ that is what I think the other poster is saying. I did not inject my views into this.
08-12-25 | 12:10 PM
#100
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8,290
Likes: 11,380
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey