i bought a trek 5.5 madone with dura-ace 10 speed. yea I know everyone has one, but deciding factors were warranty issues and being made in the U.S., and the fact of durability and proven.
love it.
I really lusted after the Look 465-485 and have wanted one for years.
the biggest deciding factor
1. figured it a problem with the frame or warranty issue it would take it quite some time to getting it taken care of since it would have to go back to Look in france.
2. the other major deciding factor was a difference of $1500.00/ I started getting cheap, strange usually I don't have a problem laying down the bucks for new bikes or equipment.

My twin brother recently purchased a titanio Guru/made in canada. I honestly cannot tell the difference in ride or handleing characteristics between the trek and the guru, so that could be with the majority of carbons.

It is a magnificant ride and enjoy it more and more ech time I ride the carbon.

I think a Ti frame would last just as long... Besides, you should buy a bike for now, not 20 years from now, live for the moment. Before the Tuscany I too was considering a Cinelli SC steel, however I'm glad I went this route.

The Tuscany Frame cost me $800 (ebay), the entire build cost around $4,500 us

It is a fantastic ride that is light, lively, plush and fast. I notice in group rides I have to stop pedaling and have to coast quite often as it does not require much power input to propel it forward, and it seems to roll faster than everybody. The frame handles very well with out being twitchy. It changes direction smoothly, and can be cornered very hard, I'm able to change lines in a corner with out a lot of effort. It seems very stiff in climbs too, with no apparent flexing.

i have ridden steel since 1978, and never considered anything different until I bought my Trek.
I still ride my steel 2200 waterford, I alternate everyother week with my Trek 5.5

My wateford is set-up with same components as my trek Dura-ace 10 speed, open pro rims.
San marcos saddles. only thing different is the material of the frames.

The 3 differences I can actually pinpoint are the trek is more compliant, probably about a 1.5 -1.75 # lighter, and lastly easier sprinting to the top of hills and I can push and ride in a harder gear.

I don't feel anything different in the bottom bracket or agility with characteristics of either frame, if they are it is very subtle.

You're right. I should but I can't get past the idea of possibly needing to make another bike purchase 10 years from now. I like the classic nature of lugged steel. It never goes out of style. I think if I could get a lugged titanium frameset (simple short point lugs) I would probably opt for that. It would add a bit of weight to the bike but it'd be the best of both worlds in my eyes.

I must admit, however, that your argument of living for the moment does have merit and the pictures of the Tuscany are keeping titanium in the forefront of my mind...

Thanks, think of it this way.. You bought the Romulus with the intent that it would be the last bike you would buy in a long time, yet here were are :) Over time personal opinions, tastes, wants, needs will change, so to say you want a bike that would last for 20 years is not a stretch, however to say you will not by another bike for 20 years, could be, depending on who you are.

My Trek has lasted 17 years, but I never intended it to be my last bike, and it has given me many pleasures, and continues to this day, regardless of what I may buy next.

As much as I like lugged steel, and want to build a bike with one, I'm more progressive and know myself too well... I'm a techno weenie at heart and will probably build a Carbon bike next, leaving the lugged bike for later on in my life.

Good luck with your decision, as I said, I think it's a win, win situation as both bikes are nice.

True enough. I'm wondering if I'm asking too much for a fully loaded titanium or steel road bike under 20 pounds at 60cm? That seems to be the one preference that I have that is a constant. Is it even possible without going to carbon fiber?

Way out of your stated price range, but ti lugged to carbon:

http://www.sampsonsports.com/bicycles/exalt.php

Thanks for the link. I was actually thinking lugged titanium to titanium...

i got the steel frame to flex but not the Ti.
and the entire bike was 3lbs lighter

Well anything can fail (ask PatentCD). However, for longevity Ti is really your best bet. It does not rust, and will not fatigue ( i.e you can bend Ti within its limits over and over with no loss of strength, unlike AL, which eventually fails from fatigue). Also Ti has a greater resiliency than steel (i.e. you can bend it farther under more force without permantly deforming it. Doesn't mean a weld on a Ti frame can't fail, and doesn't mean that you can't wreck it so bad that it doesn't bounce back, but on average Ti frames will last the longest of anything currently being built. I rode last night with a guy with a 1991 Merlin that still looked new after 60,000 miles.

Only longevity argument in favor of steel is repairablity. If you trash a tube on a lugged frame (particularly a silver brazed lugged frame, its not a big job to pop in a new tube. Waterford did this on my Paramount OS when the seat tube snapped off at the BB.

You guys are doing a fantastic job of convincing me about the ride properties of titanium. I think I can get past the weld phobia considering the overall benefits. Should I go up (61cm) or down (59cm) on the frame size? I'm used to a 60cm and have a 34.375" inseam. My Romulus top tube is 58.5cm and the 59cm Litespeed Firenze has a 57.5cm top tube. I could go with a 125mm stem to make up the difference so that's no problem. Any suggestions?

Last time I rode Firenze, it flexed like a ballerina. You might want to look for something else.

Okay. Given my height (6'3") and weight (195) what might work for me?

Hope this works. This should resolve the durablity issue with steel.

I think there's a slight bit of hyperbole in that statement. The firenze isn't designed to be stiff, in fact, certain bits of its geometry is designed specifically to be compliant. I can feel it flexing a bit when I'm really laying it down (which I don't do that much on long 100+ mile rides) but that's like saying you wanna get a new stem to save 40 grams when you can easily drop several hundred grams by peeing before a ride. I do enjoy the plush ride that it offers, which you can definitely feel that it's probably one of the plushier rides out there. Like I said before, it's solid, not stiff. If you want stiff, I think al is the best bang for the buck.
With regards to titanium, I've heard that they recently have solid 1 piece tubing made of 6/4 titanium. Not sure if that's in your price range but just in case you open up your wallet to 6/4, some companies use folded sheets of 6/4 welded at the seam to form a tube and some use the newer real tubes. With the folded pieces, you're just getting the structural strength of a folded piece of sheet metal with a weld along the fold. Not sure if that means anything now but it might in 50 years. I wouldn't worry about it though, if you do go titanium, I give you about a year or two before you feel the itch (the good kind) to try something different too. I love my firenze for going the distance but for racing and pure climbing, I'm currently looking for new wheels but might eventually also get a carbon alongside the titanium.

Thanks for all of the really good information, guys. It's very much appreciated.

I just placed an order for the rig that will be replacing my Romulus. And it's *drumroll*...a Cinelli Super Corsa.

Yes, after deliberation and rereading this thread I decided to get the Super Corsa. The price was definitely right and Tom at GVH Bikes was incredibly helpful. I couldn't help but get sucked into the Italian-lugged-steel-Cinelli-Campagnolo vortex. It will be kitted out with:

• Campagnolo Chorus headset 1" thread
• Campagnolo Centaur front der CT
• Campagnolo Centaur rear der med silver
• Campagnolo Centaur shift lever silver
• Campagnolo Centaur brake caliper silver
• Campagnolo Centaur crank 172.5mm silver 34-50
• Campagnolo Centaur bb Italian 111mm
• Campagnolo Centaur cassette 12-25
• Campagnolo Chorus Ultra Narrow chain
• Handbuilt wheelset
• - Campagnolo Centaur hubset 32
• - Mavic Open Pro rim 700c 32 hole silver
• - Wheelsmith DB14 / Brass / 64
• Cinelli 66-42 handlebar 26.4mm 42cm dk silver
• Cinelli XA stem 26.4 12.5 silver
• Campagnolo Centaur seatpost 27.2mm 250 silver
• Selle San Marco Concor Lt saddle
• Continental GP 4Season tires 700x25 blk
• Cinelli cork tape tan
• Look Keo Classic pedals

Not really true. Litespeed redesigned their Firenze this year with shaped tubes because that issue.

WOW.....Good choice. I wish I can pull my trigger like that. :(

not really, Litespeed's 06 Firenze went compact

True, but what's that got to do with my statement?

"Aggressive front triangle is completed with an oversized diamond shaped 3Al/2.5V down tube and biaxially ovalized seat tube."

Hope you understand the term "shaped tubes"

that cinelli is the stuff that my dreams are made of

I was worried about that myself since I'm 190 lbs but my '05 Firenze w/ Ritchey wheels flexes less than the 531 framed bike I replaced.

oops my bad
missed the "Aggressive front triangle is completed with an oversized diamond shaped 3Al/2.5V down tube and biaxially ovalized seat tube." in the description.

yeah i guess that would mean " shaped tubes"

If you hadn't ordered the Cinelli already, I would've said the Litespeed Siena. This is an "unflexy" frame, and light. I'm very close to getting one myself.

However (!), I have no major gripes with my Columbus Zona-framed Raleigh. ;) Excellent, excellent ride and handling.

Ok, I guess what I meant to say was, my firenze wasn't designed that way. The new one apparently seems to have a stiffer top tube and fork. To be honest, other than for racing and climbing, I really enjoy the plushy ride I have on the old one.