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Talk about Protein

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Old 08-24-06 | 11:54 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
I'm not a vegan (I'm an ovo- lacto- pesce- pollo- vegetarian ), but I never, ever eat protein during a ride. I used to when I didn't know any better, but it would give me a belly ache

My advice is to save the "real food" for the end of the ride.
+1, There really is no point to eating protein mid-ride, proteins are required for recovery days after a long ride.
A small amount of glucose is required, but I've noticed a disturbing trend in the last five years on groups rides that people are over-eating.

For a TDF stage of 5 hours with 6,000-8,000 kcal consumed, a rider with eat one 'panino' of meat-cheese-bread, one non-carbonated coke, then one energy bar ~every two hours. For 50 km group rides, I've seen guys eat two Cliff bars an hour and drink Gatorade. It takes hours to even digest all that.

What is the 'protein' in Accelerade?, it's a mystery from their website.

'm an ovo- lacto- pesce- pollo- carno- vegetarian. Nothing beats a balanced diet.

Last edited by DocRay; 08-24-06 at 12:00 PM.
 
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Old 08-24-06 | 12:04 PM
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Terry and DocRay, I agree with what both of you said.
The definition of a "long" ride is going to vary depending on your experience level. 65 miles is pretty long for some people. For most of us, it's not that long and no protein is needed mid-ride. I do have one question. At what point does a ride become long enough that some protein is required? If you are on the bike for, say, 8 hours, can you get by with no protein? Honest question. I know that I'm going to need something solid with some protein after about 5 hours. At that point I get literal hunger pangs in my stomach.
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Old 08-24-06 | 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Cranium
Your comments are real "food for thought."

You pretty much demonstrate an average person's ignorance about diet and nutrition. There's probably no use trying to educate you. Anyone who claims to be "on training rides" and then chooses turkey sandwiches, cookies and Coke for fuel is obviously at their athletic "peak."

You win RC's "twisted oral bowel movments award" - complete with particles of undigested protein.
Yeah. Jan doesn't look like he's at his athletic "peak".



Yeah, they obviously don't know nutrition on the pro circuit.

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Old 08-24-06 | 01:33 PM
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This is a report of what I have seen on a Fast cross country bike tour at 120 to 150 miles/day.
There were 30 bikers. Of those, three were Vegetarians. (perhaps more but did not reveal it) These three Vegetarians were noticeably more skinny and were not part of the fast group. However, one woman was faster than most guys.
The rest of the bikers followed a high Carb diet while biking followed with a recovery drink right after stopping for the day. I used Chocolate Milkshake and so did most.
The Vegetarians used Coca Cola.
All 30 bikers finished the 3000 mile ride without injury in 25 biking days.
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Old 08-24-06 | 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by DrPete
I never would've guessed either...

https://veggie.org/veggie/famous.veg.athletes.shtml

Also found a couple pages about Carl Lewis's vegan tendencies...

Gotta love Google--Learn something new every day!
Hmmm....not too many "top athletes" on that website the way I read it. And some of the entries appear to be bogus. They claim that Jack LaLane is a vegetarian, but that's not really true. Here's a quote from an interview with him:

Share Guide: In your book you mention that you were a vegetarian at one point for 6 years.

Jack LaLanne: I was a strict vegetarian. Then I decided to enter a Mr. America contest (which I won) and in those days they thought that in order to build muscle you had to have meat. So I ate meat for a while.

Share Guide: Why did you stop being a strict vegetarian?

Jack LaLanne: In those days everybody was saying that you had to eat meat to build muscle, so I went on a meat thing for awhile. NowI only eat fish--no chicken, no turkey, just fish. I get all my protein from fish and egg whites.
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Old 08-24-06 | 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by voltman
Also, they stated from the outset that it would be a vegan ride, didn't they?
Yes, they make it quite clear. That's the main reason I avoid this ride.....
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Old 08-24-06 | 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Pizza Man
+1

I've ridden a few races that are 100+ miles without taking any protein.

I can deal with no meat, but I just gotta have cheese on my Pizza.
Ok Pizza man. Ive seen your impressive stats. What is your fuel?
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Old 08-24-06 | 08:44 PM
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Wow, I try for a "gold star " response and get nothing........

Anyway, I think people people who want to "rag about" organized-ride food ought to use something better than "cold cuts", cookies and Coke as an example as to what to eat on "training rides".....

Never YAHOO mind........ Oh yeah, did I mention, nobody, metabolizes protein for energy, I mean unless you're starving... Get a clue - people.
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Old 08-24-06 | 09:19 PM
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Not claiming this is gospel or anything, but maybe protein is more valuable than we thought.

EFFECTS OF A CARBOHYDRATE-PROTEIN BEVERAGE ON CYCLING ENDURANCE AND MUSCLE DAMAGE (for full study click here - PDF version)
SAUNDERS, M. J., M. D. KANE and M. K. TODD. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., Vol. 36, No. 7, 2004.

Introduction: The purpose of this study was to determine if endurance cycling performance and post-exercise muscle damage were altered when consuming a carbohydrate and protein beverage (CHO+P; 7.3% and 1.8% concentrations) versus a carbohydrate-only (CHO; 7.3%) beverage.

Methods: Fifteen male cyclists (mean VO2peak=52.6±10.3 ml·kg-1·min-1) rode a cycle ergometer at 75% VO2peak to volitional exhaustion, followed 12-15 hours later by a second ride to exhaustion at 85% VO2peak. Subjects consumed 1.8ml/kgBW of randomly assigned CHO (Gatorade®) or CHO+P (Accelerade®) beverage every 15 minutes of exercise, and 10 ml/kgBW immediately following exercise. Beverages were matched for carbohydrate content, resulting in 20% lower total caloric content per administration of CHO beverage. Subjects were blinded to treatment beverage and repeated the same protocol seven to 14 days later with the other beverage.

Results: In the first ride (75% VO2peak), subjects rode 29% longer (p<.05) when consuming the CHO+P beverage (106.3±45.2 min) than the CHO beverage (82.3±32.6 min). In the second ride (85% VO2peak), subjects performed 40% longer when consuming the CHO+P beverage (43.6±12.5 min) than when consuming the CHO beverage (31.2±8.7 min). Peak post-exercise plasma CPK levels, indicative of muscle damage, were 83% lower following the CHO+P trial (216.3±122.0 U/L) than the CHO trial (1318.1±1935.6 U/L). There were no significant differences in exercising levels of VO2, ventilation, heart rate, RPE, blood glucose or blood lactate between treatments in either trial.

Conclusion: A carbohydrate beverage with additional protein calories produced significant improvements in time to fatigue and reductions in muscle damage in endurance athletes. Further research is necessary to determine if these effects were the result of higher total caloric content of the CHO+P beverage, or due to specific protein-mediated mechanisms.
Just throwing it out there. I like accelerade, but I'm not trying to sell it to anyone else... But if you do buy it, go for the Orange. Lemon-Lime is a little nasty.
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Old 08-24-06 | 09:31 PM
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I did a loaded tour with a strict vegan friend. It was at times a real pain to find food for him, sometimes at a restaurant he would just order dry baked potatos. He had no trouble on the bike, though, when we were doing 80-100 miles a day for 6 weeks.
I, on the other hand, will eat anything on a ride, or any other time, without thinking much about it. I do enjoy my rides, and I have found the more I ride, the more I can eat while riding, up to 6000 calories a day while touring with a total load of 270 pounds.
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Old 08-24-06 | 10:17 PM
  #36  
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I am 80% vegan, and I have never had a problem remaining energetic on a long ride.

Like Terrymorse, I do not typically injest protein during the rides, but will during recovery.

Most of the time, I only take fruit and water. Does me just fine.

Maybe the food was so good you ate more than your body could digest easily and your body reacted to that.

As far as the vegetarian athlete list, it is always touted by many vegetarians, ones I know and don't know, but it has not been updated in a long time and is somewhat inaccurate.

For example, Dave Scott was a vegetarian for about 2 years in the early 90s, but has not been since then. He could now be best described as a "whole foodist" (doesn't each much refined food).

How do I know? I asked him last month at a ride I did.
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Old 08-25-06 | 01:47 AM
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I'm a strict vegan and during the week I eat a lot of veggies and soy milk for protein. However, my secret weapon is one whole can of chili, or black beans every day whether I need 'em or not. I am still technically not getting as much protein as I would like, but I'm not light headed when I walk up stairs like I was before the beans. For the record, people I work with are only slightly amused that I eat 365 cans of beans a year .
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Old 08-25-06 | 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Cranium
Oh yeah, did I mention, nobody, metabolizes protein for energy, I mean unless you're starving... Get a clue - people.
Hey, do you have a source for this? I'm honestly curious as this isn't an area I'm that familiar with. A quick scan at scholar.google seems to suggest that ~5% of your energy comes from metabolizing protein.
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Old 08-25-06 | 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by MtnRide
Hey, do you have a source for this? I'm honestly curious as this isn't an area I'm that familiar with. A quick scan at scholar.google seems to suggest that ~5% of your energy comes from metabolizing protein.
It's tough to find a source because it's 100% wrong. Protein that's not used for building muscle, etc. is burned as fuel or used to make glycogen. Plenty of references on protein metabolism out there to confirm that. That's why there are so many "clueless" people who will tell you that 1g of protein = 4 kcal, just like 1g of carbohydrate, but because it's diverted to other places first it's not as available as carbs.

But what do they know?
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Old 08-25-06 | 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Cranium
Wow, I try for a "gold star " response and get nothing........

Anyway, I think people people who want to "rag about" organized-ride food ought to use something better than "cold cuts", cookies and Coke as an example as to what to eat on "training rides".....

Never YAHOO mind........ Oh yeah, did I mention, nobody, metabolizes protein for energy, I mean unless you're starving... Get a clue - people.
Before you tell people to get a clue, you should really try not telling them 100% false information.

Protein Metabolism

Proteins contain carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and sometimes other atoms. They form the cellular structural elements, are biochemical catalysts, and are important regulators of gene expression. Nitrogen is essential to the formation of twenty different amino acids, the building blocks of all body cells. Amino acids are characterized by the presence of a terminal carboxyl group and an amino group in the alpha position, and they are connected by peptide bonds.

Digestion breaks protein down to amino acids. If amino acids are in excess of the body's biological requirements, they are metabolized to glycogen or fat and subsequently used for energy metabolism. If amino acids are to be used for energy their carbon skeletons are converted to acetyl CoA, which enters the Krebs cycle for oxidation, producing ATP. The final products of protein catabolism include carbon dioxide, water, ATP, urea, and ammonia.

Vitamin B6 is involved in the metabolism (especially catabolism) of amino acids, as a cofactor in transamination reactions that transfer the nitrogen from one keto acid (an acid containing a keto group [-CO-] in addition to the acid group) to another. This is the last step in the synthesis of nonessential amino acids and the first step in amino acid catabolism. Transamination converts amino acids to L-glutamate, which undergoes oxidative deamination to form ammonia, used for the synthesis of urea. Urea is transferred through the blood to the kidneys and excreted in the urine.

The glucose-alanine cycle is the main pathway by which amino groups from muscle amino acids are transported to the liver for conversion to glucose. The liver is the main site of catabolism for all essential amino acids, except the branched-chain amino acids, which are catabolized mainly by muscle and the kidneys. Plasma amino-acid levels are affected by dietary carbohydrate through the action of insulin, which lowers plasma amino-acid levels (particularly the branched-chain amino acids) by promoting their entry into the muscle.

Body proteins are broken down when dietary supply of energy is inadequate during illness or prolonged starvation. The proteins in the liver are utilized in preference to those of other tissues such as the brain. The gluconeogenesis pathway is present only in liver cells and in certain kidney cells.
OK, I'll give you partial credit--you DO burn more body/muscle protein during starvation, but ingested protein does get burned for energy as long as your nitrogen balance is positive.
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Old 08-25-06 | 07:45 AM
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100% vegan here, and my biking has improved substantially since switching over (along with my cholesterol and bp decreasing). I think the improvements are more about being aware of the nutritional/fuel aspects of my diet rather than simply being vegan. I'm constantly tweaking my diet to try to see what works best. I do have to eat more that I used to in order to maintain my ideal size (6"1', 195lbs), but I love eating, so that's no problem
I sympathize with the initial post, however - if I was on a long ride and all that was available for "fuel" was turkey sandwiches and coke, I'd be a bit frustrated. Not surprised, just frustrated - and wishing for some fruit or tofurky sanwiches, lol. I usually bring my own fuel, though, so I'd never be in that position.
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Old 08-25-06 | 08:18 AM
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Hank Aaron is at the top of that "athlete" list. I call BS on that. I have a tape of his appearance on the American Sportsman where he is duck hunting with Curt Gowdy about the time of his run for Ruth's record. So he'd kill it but not eat it? He may be vegetarian now but I doubt he was when he was hitting homers.
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Old 08-25-06 | 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by hiromian
Ok Pizza man. Ive seen your impressive stats. What is your fuel?
Cytomax (what fuels Floyd? ) and clif bloks are what I use in races.
On long training rides I also take 2-3 clif bars.
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Old 08-25-06 | 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Robbie59
Hank Aaron is at the top of that "athlete" list. I call BS on that. I have a tape of his appearance on the American Sportsman where he is duck hunting with Curt Gowdy about the time of his run for Ruth's record. So he'd kill it but not eat it? He may be vegetarian now but I doubt he was when he was hitting homers.
I doubt it too.
Some vegan athletes I know of are King of the Cage champ Mac Danzig, bodybuilders Alexander Dargatz and Robert Cheeke, ultramarathon champ Scott Jurek, triathlete Brendan Brazier, Carl Lewis. In Marla Streb's book "Gravity Goddess" she mentions that a bunch of XC and DH mtbikers are veggie, but I don't know who they are.
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Old 08-25-06 | 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by DrPete
Not claiming this is gospel or anything, but maybe protein is more valuable than we thought.



Just throwing it out there. I like accelerade, but I'm not trying to sell it to anyone else... But if you do buy it, go for the Orange. Lemon-Lime is a little nasty.
Thanks, I'll give accelerade a try during a few training rides and if I don't have any problems I'll try it in a race.

A quick question for vegans. I eat a lot of Clif bars, and on the package it says "may contain traces of dairy". Do vegans eat Clif bars?
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Old 08-25-06 | 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Pizza Man
Thanks, I'll give accelerade a try during a few training rides and if I don't have any problems I'll try it in a race.

A quick question for vegans. I eat a lot of Clif bars, and on the package it says "may contain traces of dairy". Do vegans eat Clif bars?
Just like eating honey, it depends on the person. Personally it doesn't bother me. Hell, there could be traces of insects in my romaine, even if I wash it well. It's not going to kill me.
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Old 08-25-06 | 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Pizza Man
A quick question for vegans. I eat a lot of Clif bars, and on the package it says "may contain traces of dairy". Do vegans eat Clif bars?
Yes. I think most vegans would consider Clif bars as vegan. The "traces" thing is probably because they process products that contain milk on the same machines as they process the Clif bars.
I used to eat them, but I found they sat in my gut, especially if eating before/during rides. Now I eat Vega or Luna bars - much lighter.
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Old 08-25-06 | 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SaddleBags
Yeah. Jan doesn't look like he's at his athletic "peak".

Yeah, they obviously don't know nutrition on the pro circuit.
the "coke" consumed in those tiny cans is non-carbonated syrup.I don't know where you can buy them.
The "coke" in the red drinking bottles is water.
 
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Old 08-25-06 | 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by finbarrio
I doubt it too.
Some vegan athletes I know of are King of the Cage champ Mac Danzig, bodybuilders Alexander Dargatz and Robert Cheeke, ultramarathon champ Scott Jurek, triathlete Brendan Brazier, Carl Lewis. In Marla Streb's book "Gravity Goddess" she mentions that a bunch of XC and DH mtbikers are veggie, but I don't know who they are.
You are confusing vegan with vegetarian, they are not the same thing.

I read the Acclerade paper-its poorly done. Amazing that someone can publish adding "protein" without saying what the protein is. Sports drinks are a big BS business. Some offer glutamine amino acid, but without the other 19 amino acids, its pointless. Of course,they too have self-funded data to show efficacy.
 
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Old 08-25-06 | 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by brsboarder
Did they have any beans?
Uh... do you want to go on a group ride where beans are the primary consumable?
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