I have an OCR with the Tektro brakes. Switching to Shimano pads made a big difference. It went from "might stop", to "will stop".

Best place to buy a bike is a shop you trust and will want to build a relationship with.

If that describes this place where you want to buy the bike, make it clear. Tell them that you are planning to buy more stuff. List that stuff. Then ask politely whether they can make you a better deal if you buy all the stuff at once from them.

You'll probably find that they will offer you some kind of discount on accessories purchased with the bike, but not so much on the bike itself.

Try it and report how you do.

No one answered the first time. Why don't you go do some research and report back?

What are you complaining about? Wal*Mart makes 200-300% on clothing. Bet you still go there, and I'll bet you never haggle! Mail Order's margins are actually higher than your local LBS.

First let me point out that in my shop, buying from me without beating me to death on price gets your bike on the stand immediately or ASAP when you need a tweak, with a coupon for a free cup o' joe from the coffeeshop cuties next door. Straight to the front of the line. What might that be worth? It also gets you no-labor-charge warranty service. Hmmmm...how much there? It gets you free minor repair lessons. And gee, who's that wrenching for free at our local MS150 ride? Not the MO boys, but me.

Seriously, guys....do you know how those mail order houses can afford to send out all those glossy catalogs??? They are rolling in dough! This is because their margins are higher and their costs are lower! They could sell for even less if they weren't so greedy. On the other hand, the average LBS operates on about a 6% gross profit margin. That's right: I get to keep up to $.06 out every dollar.

So yes, if I have a bike that needs a home because it's been around too long, then I deal. But on new stuff, you got the best deal just by being smart enough to walk through my door.

Not every LBS operates the way I do, so find yourself a good one and treat 'em right. Build a relationship.

I've found the best way to negotiate on an already discounted bike is to ask for a percentage off of the accessories you're buying. It sounds like you need quite a few sooo.... saves you quite a bit of money since you're going to be getting them anyways.

Those who have never been in business don't understand the difference between markup and profit. 100% markup isn't the net profit. From that figure deduct all expenses like" rent, insurance, utilities and payroll. You know those nagging little expenses that eat up about 70% of the markup. Then you pay your Uncle Sam tax on the gross profit which yeilds net profit. There aint much left on a sale after all that.

Tim

Good post.

BTW...add to the mail order house "they provide no service, you pay the shipping and if the item's screwed up, broken, or under warranty you get to ship it back and wait. And wait. And wait..." If they did, then people would not "use" the bike shop as the Nashbar showroom, trying on clothes, shoes, and asking the wrenches for free advice.
We laugh about this...most people don't value their time much at all. And we'll order it for the customer, and if they come back and pick it up, we don't charge for shipping. And we'll call you when it's in, and it will typically take 2-3 days.

BTW, those glossy catalogues are great for reading and flipping through when on the can.

It's all about relationships...some customers we see coming through the door and rose petals fall out of the ceiling. Others, everyone runs for the stock room.
All due to the relationship.

Arguing with the bike shop about a price is not negotiating. It's arguing. If I don't get something out of it too, then the conversation's over. Thanks for playing.

I know....I own two businesses.

Good post.

At the end of the day, before starting the negotiation you need to know what your best alternative is. Then it's just a question of entering a discussion to do better or equal that. If the shop won't match your best alternative by exercising their right not to sell, you exercise your right to buy the best alternative. Very simple concept.

Question is, what is your best alternative and how much does it cost? If comparison is difficult, e.g. you expect to receive future better service from your local shop, you will need to place a $ amount on that service. Is it worth $0, $10 or $100? There is no right answer, but if you factor that in you will at least have a firm basis for negotiation.

Next question is how to go through the discussion. Again, no right answer, but it helps if you speak to the a salesperson who is in a position to do a deal not the saturday workshop help. Next convince the salesperson that you are a serious buyer not a timewaster. Normally this means having a clear idea of what you want and sticking to it. Once you've communicated this, you can ask whether the salesperson is flexible on price. Normally they will ask you to say what you're willing to pay, at which point you have your best alternative ready to go. Normally I would start with a price a little below the best alternative and go from there.

I find that if I've done my research, it pays to reveal a number close to your best available alternative early in the negotiation, since the salesperson then knows you want to buy, and doesn't need to spend 1/2h horse trading with someone who has an unrealistic idea of what an item costs.

Agree totally. However, what most shops completely miss / ignore is the difference between a fully loaded and marginal cost of sale. In a nutshell if you sell a product you would not otherwise sell at greater than its marginal cost, you have made a worthwhile contribution towards overheads.

For example, if a widget costs $50, and has shop overheads associated with it of $40, shops will normally sell for prices > $90. However, if someone comes into the shop from another town and says he can get it for $70 on the internet, rationally the shop should still sell the product because they get $20 towards overheads they otherwise would not get.

Only hitch in this line of thinking is when products have limited supply, in which case the aim is to set a price at which you just sell all your product.

While at the surface, that seems rational, it is seldom a good business practice. Generally, when someone suggests I meet some internet price, I smile and say, "Ok, I'll meet that price then lets add $6 for shipping. Pay me now and come back in 2 or 3 days, it will be ready".

The main problem with the aforementioned example is that someone was treated differently. In your example, they are from another town, and presumably are not a regular, and therefore have probably contributed very little to our cause. I am fair to a fault. I cannot afford to have my most loyal customers feel that they are somehow paying a penalty to do business with me. My prices are not random-I watch the "going rate" like a hawk. We are seldom more than a few $$ over anything but blowout (or stolen) stuff on ebay... But to reward someone who takes up more of my time haggling with a concession...time I could be spending more productively...well that doesn't make much sense. I do, however, reward people who help my shop by doing local volunteer work with a shop shirt on, or who help with trail maintenance. They get discounts based on hours worked.

There's that emphasis on relationship again!

then piss on the floor and walk out

I was looking at a 2005 Serotta Fierte Steel with 2006 components all summer at my favorite LBS. I test rode it 3 times and the seat did not have to be adjusted after the first test ride so I assumed that I was the only one that had test ridden it. The LBS was having it's 10th annual Labor Day Sale where you are supposed to make an offer. I waited until the afternoon of the last day and went in to try and make a deal. They had told me that there was a lot of interest in the bike for the sale. When I took the bike up to negotiate, the guy asked me if I would pay 2,595, which was the marked price. I offered him 1,600 which was $400 less than the lowest price that I had seen on the Internet. He said he had to make money, so I asked him what his lowest price was, and shut up. He finally said $2,000. I looked disappointed and said nothing for awhile to see if I could get him to talk first. He was a pretty good negotiator too and would say nothing. I finally said I wanted to ride it some more. I knew that nobody else could buy since you had to bring the bike to the negotiating table and that could not be done since I had the bike. I rode it for as long as I could stand it and then acted like I was conferencing with my buddy. I finally went over and offered $1,800. They guy said he might be able to split the difference. He looked at his list and delayed answering for awhile and finally said I could have it for $1,900. I spec'd the components after I bought the bike and could not have built it for less than $2,500. I saw an 2005 all-Ultegra bike advertised on the Internet for $1,995. Was it really all-Ultegra? Maybe.

The bottom line is that they thought no less of me for trying to get the lowest price and treated me no differently because of the negotiation. Just keep it friendly. Remember, he who mentions a figure first loses. He who talks first loses. Make a reasonable low offer and shut up! Be ready to buy if they meet your figure. You don't like to be jerked around and neither do they.

Man, you just keep hittin' 'em out of the park!

Good post!

It's not what you did....it's the way you did it. That's the difference.

I agree completely that one should focus more on building a relationship with your lbs than trying to save a few bucks. The relationship will benefit you better in the long run, and in fact might save you a few bucks as well. Example: I'm about to purchase my first road bike (have been mountain biking for a very long time) and have a good relationship with my lbs. After several trips to the shop, I'm set on a LeMond Reno, but unfortunately the shop is out of the discounted 2006 models in my (quite tall) size. Imagine my surprise when the shop owner offers to order the 2007 for me, and if I decide to buy it, he *offered* to give me the price that the 2006 would have been. (~$100 discount)

That goes to show that being on good terms with your lbs will pay off in the long run

You didn't describe a negotiation. You described haggling over price.

Two entirely different things.

H1449-6.
Your are technically correct. What is the intent of or meaning behind your statement?
He asked about negotiating price on bike and components. You say haggling over price. Please explain the difference between negotiating price and haggling over price. I certainly thought I addressed part or all of the question he was asking. I had never haggled/negotiated like that before on a bicycle and was unsure how it would go. I think I got a pretty good price and wanted to share my experience. Any problem or harm in that?

Are you a troll or am I just sensitive today? Posters commenting on my well intended replies instead of addressing the thread is really wearing thin with me.

You're just sensitive today.

I am a grouch, not a troll.

I can't do that but I will be happy to explain the difference between negotiation and haggling.

Haggling: one party publishes a high price, the other party presents a lowball offer, and they stubbornly give up a little ground at a time until they meet more or less in the middle. Typical alternative to a successful haggling is to walk away; this is often the threat held out by the parties.

Negotiation: the parties first agree upon a desired end state and work together to invent scenarios to get to that desired end state; the parties don't cling to positions but rather attempt to satisfy interests.

If you had "negotiated" rather than "haggled" you might have wound up with a better deal. Instead, by using the single variable of how much currency would be exchanged, you limited your options. Very simple example to illustrate that is this: it costs the shopkeeper about half retail to "give" you something like a pair of shorts or a helmet. The perceived value of that thing to you can be greater than that. Service may cost him nearly nothing on a marginal basis to "give" you, but has a perceived value to you.

In contrast, the perceived value of a dollar to each of you is identical.

You're not unique. And most shopkeepers don't know how to negotiate either.