mihlbach

Looks like a few folks pulled out...its back up to $500.

WheresWaldo

I kill myself too. But we should be able to agree that this is the dumbest tier setup anyone has ever devised.

mihlbach

Wait!!! Don't kill yourself until after paying the $200 deposit. Your deaths could cost me an extra $10

0_o

looks like people have dropped out from all price points.
hmm wonder if the bikes Direct group question thread and BD's CF $399 frame fork suggestioned sale , caused a few people to drop from the Pedal force 0ffer.

mihlbach

I have no doubt about that. I know the BD "Bottechia" frame looks like the Pedalforce RS, and I'm sure its a good frame, but I'm not convinced that it is really exactly the same..I just don't have enough info to really know for sure. What I do know is that the Pedalforce RS and other Pedalforce frames consistently get great reviews and I've seen enough evidence to conclude that the ZX3 will live up to this standard. The "Bottechia" frame, on the other hand is more of an uncertaintly. I'm definately sticking with this group buy and will not give in to BD temptation.

Ernesto Schwein

In the immortal utterance of Botto: "correct"

Strong Bad

Same here. (If for no other reason then the tactics of the BD post).
I also like and trust the clear coat frames more than the painted ones. Too easy to cover defects. The price difference isn't that much and it's the newer ZX3 rather than the RS.

Dubbayoo

I couldn't be happier with my RS and I'd gladly buy another if the geometry varied more between models. A smaller size with a longer top tube would be even more perfect.

Grasschopper

Looks like you only need 7 more for the best price...currently 77 at the $490 price point and 93 at $480.

0_o

I am going to get the ZX3 but still have to figure out how i am going to build it and talk things over with my wife.
I started thinking of the BD frame offer but I decided to stick with the PF frame for my new beater / commuter .
BD people never replied back to me about the frame being truly naked. I have not need for a pre painted bike. I just want a nude bike so i can to paint half or 1/4 of the frame then leave the rest naked. Besides Now I am finding the timing of that one thread to be a wee bit questionable.
Even if the BD frame is exactly that same as the RS I prefer the ZX3 design a bit over that of the RS.
frames at 490 now

Volfy

You can tell from the posted pics that the BD $400 carbon frame is done the same way as their Immortal frame - painted black at the "joints" and naked carbon in the middle of tubes. I remember BDMike himself said in one of those BD threads that this is typically to hide details that comes from skipping the outermost "cosmetic" layer. Apparently it is less expensive to do so, but reportedly does not affect the frame's structural integrity. PF doesn't skid this layer and so may be worth the premium to those who are keen on this.

When BDmike original mentioned the $400 carbon frame, I though the fork is included in the deal. Now that he is saying it isn't (but he will put together a special fork deal with the frame), it isn't exactly the bargain I thought it was. I'm still on the fence as to which way to go. The rough $100-$130 premium is significant with respect to just the frame, but not as much by the time I tally up the total price of the build, which is likely to be no less than $2000.

The ZX3 for sure looks like a newer and improved design.

alanbikehouston

I often see posts that seem to assume that someone can tell whether a frame and fork are "exactly the same" simply by looking at a photograph. That is just not true.

Some of the bike factories in Taiwan, and most of the bike factories in communist-occupied portions of China are "experts" in making knock-off copies of high quality products. Engineers at Ritchey, Trek, and Cannondale find and identify counterfeit knock-off products by subjecting products to stress testing, and then slicing them up and examining them from the insides. Millions of dollars of equipment involved.

The best "guarantee" you are getting a premium quality frame and fork is pretty easy. You go to the best Trek dealer, the best Cannondale dealer, best Specialized dealer, or the best Giant dealer in your town. You buy a frame and fork that says Trek, Cannondale, Specialized or Giant, with the lifetime warranty, backed by the factory.

They have found the fella in communist China who supplied the poisoned wheat gluten that was killing American pets. He said "This was the fault of the Americans...you want the cheapest products and you got the cheapest product".

And if you look for the cheapest frame and fork on the market, the communist Chinese have exactly what you are looking for...

mikeat

i'm in.

mihlbach

ABH,
Somewhere in there you are approaching making a valid point...but it is deeply buried by your obvious political agenda. Stop exaggerating and infusing politics into your arguements and you just might come up with something worth saying.

alanbikehouston

Facts and politics are two different things. Today, the "New York Times" has two detailed articles about a toy sold for boys age two to six that was poisoned with lead paint. Where was it from? Communist China.

The "New York Times" also did a detailed article about a poison that has been found in cough syrup and toothpaste that has been killing children in Haiti and Panama, and that same poison was found last week in communist-made counterfeit "Colgate" toothpaste here in the USA. The article documents that the supplier of the poison is a company owned by the communist party of China, and how the communist controlled government of China tried to block the investigation.

And, the next article detailed how the MAJORITY of dangerous products aimed at American children that have been recalled recently are from communist China.

And, last, we have the communist Chinese supplied poisoned wheat gluten, which has been used in pet food, and to "fatten" animals headed to your dinner table.

Please reseach this for yourself. Go to the "New York Times" and search on "recalled toys", "colgate toothpaste" "counterfeit products", and "wheat gluten". The facts speak for themselves.

When someone who sells "bikes direct" claims he can find the cheapest frame and cheapest fork in the world, he is probably correct. The issue is: how much is your health and safety worth?

mihlbach

Sorry, but none of that has anything to do with bikes, especially bike frames made in TAIWAN. If you have a point to make about Pedalforce or Bikes Direct frames, you would be better off trying to make it without repeatedly diverting it into an anti-"communist china" statement which has nothing to do with the issue.

mihlbach

But they are not making that claim at all. The cheapest available in the US are found in Walmart, not the BD website. Their (BD's) claim is that they sell products that are equivalent in quality to the name brands, but with the lowest mark-up. At any rate, I don't think BD has a history of selling defective products that are more prone to failure than name brands. So unless you have some evidence to the contrary, your point here is completely misdirected. The point here is not whether one frame is more dangerous than another, but whether the the BD "Bottechia" frame and Pedalforce RS frames are exactly the same (for instance, in terms of weight and stiffness)...the few people who really know this are probably employees of the factory, and not even BD. For that reason, I still would rather go with a Pedalforce frame. However, you are not only blowing the "BD-versus-name-brand" issue way out of proportion, but you aren't even coming up with relevant arguements.

alanbikehouston

Milbach, go to today's "New York Times". Two of the "top ten" articles involve "Chino-crap". America is a free country, so you are free to support communist-made products if you prefer. But, the plain facts are: these products are dangerous.

The counterfeit Colgate toothpaste did NOT say "made in China". (It says "Made in South Aflica"....the communists are not great spellers). When communist owned factories make counterfeit "Italian" purses, those bags are labeled...duh..."made in Italy".

Most low-end frames and forks come with "sticky" labels that say "Made in Taiwan" or "Made In China". But, they are NOT very sticky. I visited a store in my neighborhood that is one part of the "we have the cheapest bikes" chain. On many of the communist-made bikes, the "made in China" sticker "fell" off before going out onto the sales floor.

On, even genuine "Made in Taiwan" products may be counterfeit. Ritchey sued E-Bay after E-Bay refused to stop auctions selling fake "Ritchey" products. The fakes were made in the same factory that had made "genuine" Ritchey products. However, Ritchey had cancelled its contract with that factory when the product failed Ritched quality testing. The "fakes" had the Ritchey name, but did not meet Ritchey quality and safety standards, and of course, did not have a Ritchey warranty.

It is freshman economics that "you get what you pay for". A Kia dealer could claim that an $8,000 Kia is made on the same assembly line as an $80,000 BMW, and claim the the Kia is equal in quality to the BMW. Is there any adult who would believe him?

Anyone who is selling bargain basement bike frames and forks and represents that they are equal in quality, and equal in testing before, during, and after production, equal in customer service, and equal in warranty service to premium priced frames and forks is simply a liar who assumes that a sucker is born everyday.

mihlbach

Here we go with the "communist-made bike" crap again!

Since the Motobecanes Merciers etc., are basically already Tiawanese made counterfeits of name brands, and if they were really made in China, they'd be communist-made counterfeits of countefeits WOW!

Volfy

So ABH... how are we to regard the Trek, C'dale and Specialized bikes that are made in China? Last time I was in the best Trek dealer, the best Cannondale dealer, best Specialized dealer, a lot of their bikes had a big ol' "Made in China" sticker on them.

alanbikehouston

Yes, it is sad, but there are NO "Made In America" bikes in 2007 selling in the $100 to $700 price range. At one time, the Schwinn Chicago plant employed thousands of Americans, building millions of bikes each year in that price range. But, an American worker who makes $9 an hour can't compete with slaves taking home $9 per week.

The result was that Trek had a choice: leave the "under $700" market (which is the majority of bikes sold in the USA) or find a way to sort through the "Chino-crap", evaluate it, test it, and finds those few Chinese products that are built to American quality and safety standards.

And, you are wrong about "the Cannondale" dealer. All of the Cannondale aluminum frames and aluminum fork models have been made in the USA. Every single one.

Trek, Specialized and Cannondale employ large numbers of engineers, trained and experienced in stress testing hubs, rims, frames and forks. They have invested millions of dollars in various stress testing machines, x-ray machines, and other devices. They do some silly testing (Cannondale found that the best why to test forks for how they behave in a crash was to have a guy ride into a wall at high speed...I wonder what the job turnover is?). And, every single day, these companies cut apart frames and forks and inspect them internally to see how they responded to the stress testing.

Each of these companies has gotten sub-par components, frames and forks from China. And, they sent them back, or they tossed them in the trash. And, and when a frame, fork, or component failed in the field, due to a manufacturing defect, they replace them.

In contrast, the "I've got the lowest price" folks send e-mail after e-mail to their sources in Asia saying "find me the cheapest carbon frame...find me the cheapest carbon fork". When the cartons arrive in the USA, they are often shipped to the customer without the carton EVER being opened.

The very best of the bargain importers might open the cartons, assemble the bike, and ride them around the parking lot for five minutes. Their "quality control" honcho is likely to be a kid who worked at McDonalds last month as the fry cook.

Again, if you can't tell the difference between $5 slacks from Wal-Mart, and $75 slacks from Macy's, you ought to be wearing $5 slacks. But, the difference between the "cheapest" carbon frame and the "cheapest" carbon fork, and the BEST carbon frame and the BEST carbon fork just might be your life.

Volfy

So after all that ranting about goods made in big bad Communist China, what you are saying is that they are perfectly okay to buy as long as you buy 'em from a LBS, right?

Ryleeryno

This thread is starting to take a negative turn due to someone's meaningless, political views. Pedal Force frames are made in Taiwan along with 70% of all carbon fiber bikes, including Trek now. Lets keep this on topic with "ZX3 group buy" in mind and hopefully in Oct. we'll have glorious pictures of our builds to view. comrade.

lvleph

Which is a socialist and communist idea. lol

mihlbach

5 more to go 'til $480.
This is my first group buy, but I get the feeling that 100 people signed up does not equal a $480 deal. Its easy to sign up and much harder to pay...how many of these people will actually follow through with the downpayment?