which ever you use campagnolo or Shimano you are railroaded into using their proprietry components. Why blame Shimano?
It is a japanese (ie racism) thing

Campag only works with campag. Come on lets blame them for railroading you into being able only use their cassettes with their chains and shifters.

Wow... you're really stretching now aren't you? I don't just blame Shimano for doing this. Campy is guilty to some extent although to a lesser extent since their stuff does interoperate more than Shimano and if they're indeed going to embrace ISIS then that's an even better thing. FWIW, I'm looking to mix Shimano and Campy (and misc) in the drivetrain... Shimano 10sp cassette (when it comes out because it'll probably be cheaper by half than Campy for comparable cluster and I like the greater variety) with FSA cranks and chainrings, SRAM chain, Campy derailleurs (front and rear) and Ergo levers pulling Shimano brakes.


Except that's not currently the case. However it appears it might be the trend. I currently use Shimano Dura-Ace derailleurs, STI shifters, cassette (on Mavic hubs) along with FSA cranks and chainrings and a SRAM chain and they all work perfectly fine. The only mistake I made was going with the Shimano BB which limits my choices in terms of cranksets. I should have chosen ISIS.

I'd like to see you get ergo shifters to work with a Shimano 10s cassette as the spacing is reported to be different.
As far as cranks go you'll always have lots of choice there. I use a FSA team issue carbon pro in octalink version (with has 9speed rings) with a Campagnolo 10s drivetrain and the shifting is better than any campagnolo crankset i've tried (Record included).
The only area IME where campag is better than shimano is in the rear derailleur and ergo shifter layout (which I prefer), however I can live with the STi Layout.

I don't see how Octalink is limiting your choice of cranksets though. All the major Crank Set players ie Shimano, FSA, TA specialities, Stronglight make canks for Octalink. Campag will swithc to ISIS because it cannot makea BB on it's own without changing the std's significantly.

Shimano have now shown a new way to make cranks and BB's stiffer and place lower load on the bearings by mounting the bearing outside the BB shell. Clever, lateral and different from anything that had gone before it.]

Eventually, all cranks will be made this way. and as with Octalink, Imitiation will be the sincerest form of flattery.

PS: The bit on anti japanese ie possible racism was a blanket statement not directed at you Khuon.

I woonder if anyone knows that Shimano bicycle components are designed in Germany by Shimano Europe and manufactured in their plants in the Czech Republic, japan, malaysia....

TimB,

Here I thought maybe we could get over this pimpy bike
stuff and here you go dredging up the shimano/campy war.

(SIGH)

I think alot of the mystique of Campy is leftover from the
record, Nuovo Record and SuperRecord days when you could
repair your own RD's. I haven't tried on a newer one so
I can't comment. However I do know (cause I did it) that
you can repair an Ergo Lever and it isn't all that difficult and
no special tools required (but you do get extra points for
VAR or Campy tools).

I think campy levers will work with shimano cassettes
need to check on that, at least does with spacer kits.

l didn't think the thread was about campy vs. shimano,
but that fact that the new Dura Ace crankset (as seen on
Lance's bike) was mountain bike ugly (Ok, I have my nomex
on now!). I don't care, if FSA, Shimano, Campy, Galli, Stronglight,
TA Cyclotourist or Sakae produced it, it would STILL be UGLY.

thats my story and I'm stickin to it.

Marty
(who still thinks Hinault was a jerk).

Marty
(with whom I agree Hinault was ajerk)

I agree that crank is not exactly aesthetically pleasing
But it is one hell of a clever design. Ugly Or noyt I'd still buy it for it's functioning.

Now here is where the myth lies.
Yes Campy ergo's can be repaired and easily too. But so can STI's! And what even better, is the spares are also available form Shimano within 3-4 days worldwide.

I did'nt want to turn this into a Shimano vs campy thread, it's just so irritating that people simply follow Dogma's as truth without actually finding out what that is.

Of course it's not worth repairing Veloce or Ultegra, it's simply cheaper to buy new components but with Chorus, Dura Ace and Record it is viable to reapir and it can be done.

rant over

As been said before:

[1] Ergo vs. STI - Rider preference

[2] Campy drivetrain vs. Shimano drivetrain - Campy doesn't seem to shift quite as smooth as Shimano but smooth enough (for most people). Shimano doesn't seem to last quite as long as Campy but long enough (for most people). It's a wash here in terms of performance. Campy does look prettier though (at least to me) but I then again don't (or shouldn't) stare at my derailleurs when I'm riding the bike.

[3] Campy crank vs. Shimano crank vs. other manufacturer's cranks - I think performancewise, at the very top-end, it's also wash. I'm sure my FSA cranks perform on par with Campy Record-C and Shimano Dura-Ace. After that it's all aesthetics... and price. The Campy cranks cost twice as much and the Shimanos cost about the same. The issue here is that if you went with OctaLink, you'll most likely be forced into buying Shimano's BB and D-A BB's have been criticised for their durability problems. I know many of the touring guys go with Ultegra BBs instead of D-A even if the rest of the bike is D-A. Ugliness aside (and I do think the 2004 D-A cranks are ugly), the new D-A cranks even further solidifies the need to run only one combination of crank and BB. Maybe this will change over time and I hope it does but unfortunately it looks like this is a solution in search of a problem. The MTB crowd never fully bought into the Bullseye crank concept and they're tough on their components. Those who'll want to mix and match will most likely stick with ISIS for a long time... until another open standard comes along.

IMO, the 2004 DA cranks look very cool.

Pivots in 105 derailleurs and to a lesser extent,ultegra,will wear out faster then dura-ace,record or chorus and thus produce sloppier shifting.D/A and record rear derailleurs have ball bearings in the jockey wheels that greatly cut friction relative to the bushings found in less expensive jockey wheels.If you dont go carbon,shimano D/A cranks are lighter and as stiff as campy aluminum.105 group is outstanding when new.Braking and shifting will be weak for a big guy and performance will deteriorate quickly.Heavier riders should consider higher end parts.VeloNews buyer's guide.

And where are people to go to find out the truth? I was under the assumption that this forum was a place that people could go to learn the truth about bikes.

Are they going to learn from you? Since I've been on this forum, I've read your attacks on anyone who disagreed with you, calling them "too cocky and young to understand", saying they have a "narrow mind" because they disagreed with you, condescendingly suggesting that what you had to say was "to techno" for one forum member, calling the same member "blinded", and here labeling as "ignorant" an opinion with foundation in truth, and then calling those that dislike Shimano "racist", except Khoun of course. As you clarified, that was "just" a blanket statement. Name calling and intimidation seem to be your instructional tools.

You've fomented false rumor, "rumblings are the Madone is to flexible", gross mistatements of technological fact, "Al(uminum) has no fatigue limit; it just snaps and fails", and "spoilt" (is that a word in Southend? What is the "Uni" in Southend anyway?) many threads with your cynical bile, "Hinault is the biggest piece of human excrement..."

You want people to find the truth, to learn? Well "we don't need no dark sarcasm...in the classroom", timb-er.

all i know is i stripped two 105 cranks. LBS told me it happened sometimes with the splined BBs--steel being harder than aluminium and all that. could i have done that with a square interface? not likely. but, i'll stick to shimano b/c it's cheaper, plain and simple. i'd love to have record, 'cause i think it's really cool looking and a bit lighter. but the wallet says shimano, i'll take shimano.


oh, and i think the new cranks are incredibly ugly.

Don.d
where is Southend??

I'm glad you understood everything else in the post Timber. Southend is in Egypt, near de'nile.

and you refer to my alleged dark sarcasm....
and who's in de'nile...

I only bring out the tools when somethin needs fixin. ?

well tanks for pointing out that my tone is being perceived as condescending. I do slip into that rude mode from time to time.

I'm not in Southend London
'Uni' is a university

and I do believe you have used certain extracts from my posts to promote a certain view ie;

a staement made by the original poster which i merely agreed with.
perhas i should have agreed more sympathetically???

a genuine request for the poster to indicate if it is more to techinical as I don't know what everybodies background is. no malice intended however it seesm you interpreted it that way even though it had nothing o do with you.

In short; Butt out of discussions that don.d concern you. You'll be a much happier oil baron for it.

I'm feelin just fine right now, tim.

PS I know what a Uni is.

i think the new dura ace cranks look pretty cool as well. i don't think the two piece design is very smart, however....and i don't think splined BBs are smart either. i'd rather have 4 big corners holding my cranks in place than 8 tiny little splines. but in the end i guess it's the same amount of metal...

profile (the BMX brand) uses a 48 spline system but also use chromoly steel for their crank arms. most of the top pros use these and they take A LOT of abuse. the other top crank in BMX land is the primo powerbite, which uses aluminum arms and an oversized square steel spindle. the crankarms have pinchbolts on them. if these designs can take the abuse of BMX, then i guess the Dura Ace design can't be all bad. i just worry about what happens when the drive side gets loose on the pressed-fit spindle...not gonna be pretty.

Could you post a link to that article? I have 105 and am a bigger rider(180lbs). I have about 700 miles on my Felt F65 and have had no problems. The braking seems to be great to me. How many miles does it take to see a loss in performance. I was told the 105 would last, thats why I bought it.

Its in a mag,velonews buyers guide.

The only way the splines wear is if you mess up while fiting the cranks arms. This is the same system used to fit your car axels onto your transmission. So unless you think you can generate more torque than a V8, this will last you a lifetime.

Uh...........okay.

talk about digging up some old history.........