MillCreek

In order to better gauge the demand for a titanium cross bike, I wonder if Mike should also post a message in the cyclocross forum. I have not seen one there.

Ray Tarto

Let me preface this by saying I'm close to the cheapest cyclist in the world, but I consider myself in the target customer base for BD because I'm not particularly brand-conscious but I am value-conscious. I've never bought a bike new but I regularly surf the BD site, and if I did decide to pull the trigger it would probably be there more likely than anywhere else. A well-priced Ti-bike with reasonable components (say all-105 with a double non-compact crank) would probably push me over the fence.

I don't think you'll sell a lot of real high-end Ti bikes (Dura-ace or Record-equipped). The component price will push the price to a point that the OCP crowd (for lack of a better term) would probably just bite the bullet and go for a Merlin or a Lightspeed. Similarly I think the premium over a CF frame would drive away the new (but well-funded) cyclist that buys a bike like the Immortal Spirit. They probably don't have a very nuanced consideration of frame materials and unless they spend all day reading the propaganda on the Lightspeed site they will assume/know that CF>Ti so why pay more.

I think the largest market for Ti-bikes is in people currently riding steel because they are traditionalist or who like the ride, but who would appreciate something that doesn't rust and will last a long type (of which I am one). This is basically the same crowd that buys (or would buy) from Habcycle, but I think you could also pull a lot of the more traditional BD-crowd in if you had say a 105-equipped Ti bike around the same price as an Ultegra-equipped Al/CF bike (or maybe Ultegra Ti for the same price as Dura-Ace Al/CF). It'll have enough bling to pull them in but not be break-the-bank expensive.

Basically what I'm saying is I don't think a Ti-bike as a flagship will work. It'll just be too expensive that the people that aren't pre-disposed to Ti will not go for it, and the Seven/Merlin/Lightspeed crowd will be skeptical if not put off by the low cache of the BD brands (no offense). I think your market is primarily made up of people who would like to ride Ti but who are currently put off by the price, and there might be enough of them to make it worthwhile (Habanero seems to fit in this niche nicely), but it just isn't the high-end crowd that will buy a "flagship" bike from BD.

That all being said I'd almost certainly go for a traditional-geometry (not compact!) frame with a non-integrated head-tube and a full 20-speed 105 groupo for under $1500. Bonus points for a non-ergo handlebar and non-seizure-inducing decals.

Ray

marqueemoon

I think this post is pretty right on. I definitely fit into the traditionalist camp. I would like a nicely equipped bike that will last me a good five years or longer. I have a few nice older bikes and I love them, but I would also like a more modern machine with good components. I have been staking out ebay and craigslist for at least 6 months trying to find something used but in good shape in my size that would work for me with a few minor upgrades/changes. No dice.

I like compact geometry personally as long as it's not too extreme, but I agree that traditional geometry/lines and no funny stuff will probably sell more bikes to the grouches, and that's your market. The other thing is grouches tend to be pretty particular about parts. You may sell more just offering this as a frame (no fork).

Ray Tarto

I'm so giddy that someone agreed with me it's time to throw out something really odd.

What a lot of people are saying in this thread is that they want something that rides like steel but takes a beating, half the people are talking about commuters (fenders and eyelets) and cross bikes.

What about stainless steel?

I don't think you can beat the big names with bling, there is just too much snobbery (for lack of a better term) in cycling. But why not offer something no one else does? I have heard there have been stainless frames in the past (and even heard about a newer stainless tubeset) but you could give people just about everything they want in a Ti frame for a lot less $ and a few more oz., and offer something that no one else does. I think that would do more to put Motobecane (or whoever) on the map a lot more effectively than trying to beat the big names at their own game.

Ray

serac

+1 for a disk compatible titanium cross frame. This could leap frog the brand, IMO. I'd buy one.

musician

send me a free one!

grahny

Considering the fact that BD had a deal on a record equipped bike for around $1,500, I think it would be manageable for everyone interested with a Ti frame and a higher end group, then again only Mike could answer that. I'm still thinking chorus

bsyptak

I'd probably be interested in a cross frame (disk & canti mounts) more than anything else. Stickers applied on bare ti, no clear coat. Used ti road frames can be had all day long for very good prices, especially compared to their original price. And they can be made to look like brand new with a 3m pad in about 15 minutes. I guess that's the 'problem' with ti from a dealer's perspective. It never really degrades. No need to replace it.

People are ditching their lifetime ti frames en masse for disposable carbon frames. I've nothing wrong with CF, in fact I'm thankful for the resale market in ti frames it's created. There are no issues with buying recent ti frames, unlike steel (rust, scratches) or CF (ticking time bomb?).

That's the delimma I faced (new or used). I ended up getting a whole bike for less than a new frame. After stripping it down and literally spending about 15 minutes with a 3m pad, here's what I am left with:


A 6 year old titanium frame that could be sold as new. Absolutely perfect. Bare naked, the way it was meant to be.

DocRay

Maybe you should actually ride it.

Some of those 'ticking time bombs' have been ticking for 20 years.

bsyptak

I didn't say I had anything against CF, but they're just like buying a used Ferrari. If there's a gray area about it's lineage, it's probably not a good idea to buy it. Ti is not like that. If it simply looks good (and it was a good frame to begin with), then it most likely is.

DocRay

OOoooh...so 'disposable' and 'ticking time bombs' are good things.

Volfy

I just stripped a 20yr old lugged steel down to bare frame. I was expecting the worst, since it has spent the last 7yrs in hot humid Houston garage. When I pulled out the seatpost and look down the seat tube, not a spec of rust.

If I buy a Ti frame, it won't be because I fancy myself a connoisseur of finer frame materials. It'll be just so I've got another tinker toy with a different flavor. When you get right down to it, for those of us with more than one bike in our stable - and there are apparently many of us - that's all it's about.

Stickney

I am pleasantly surprised that I am not alone in my interest in a titanium cyclocross/commuter/touring type of frame. With high gas prices and general environmental concern, I think you will find that there will be increasing interest in bicycle commuting to work. And, I think anyone who lives where there are four distinct seasons will attest that heat, cold, snow, ice, road salt, and debris will take their toll on your bicyle. After 2 years of owning a TI frame, I am sold on the benefits it offers in terms of carefree maintenance of the frame. That is my primary interest in a TI cyclocross frame for commuting and trail riding in the fall, winter, and spring.

I won't promise to purchase one if you offered a bike, but I would certainly give it a good long look. Component options are less of a concern for me, just a frame or frameset option would be just fine, but a decently spec-ed 105 or Veloce bike would be nice as well.

And though some will complain about your "shilling", I for one wish there was a manufacturers forum on this site where more companies did market research and responded to our complaining, whining, narcissitic selves. Can't imagine why they don't do that, haha.

bsyptak

Before they are crashed, yes.

All 4 frame materials are represented in the household. I just wanted a frame that is lighter than the 4.2 lb steel frame I ride on now, but will be as reliable, solid and comfortable. That left one choice.

The one good thing about CF frames these days is that they are coming down in price so quickly as to be truly disposable. No longer is there the worry of crashing a $1500 frame, it's now about crashing a $400 frame. Only problem is learning to live with a $400 no-name CF frame's reliability.

These are just my thoughts, Doc. I'm sticking with them for the forseeable future.

steve_wmn

I think the basic, low cost Ti bike is already covered by Habcycles. Maybe you can undercut him a little but I don't think that'll be a flagship product.

What I'd like to see is a real "last bike you'll ever own" Ti bike. Make it a 'cross frame with accommodations for fenders and a rack. Put S&S couplers or build it as a Ritchey Breakaway, and ship it in a decent travel case. This'll differentiate your bike from the others and sell to those folks that travel a decent amount and want a good bike to take with them.

Smorgasbord42

I would think the real question is whether the kind of customer who is willing to buy a bike online (a bike that one has never ridden and maybe never even seen in person) would be willing to spend, as you say, $500-$600 more than your carbon frame, for what will be a heavier frame. Take a look at the competition: those in England can get a $1K titanium frame from Van Nicholas. In the US, Habanero makes a Ti touring/cross frame for $850. Habanero Cycles. It weighs about 3.4 lbs, depending on size. Also, Sheldon Brown has a page on a fully equipped version: Habanero Century Special .

Typically, people choose titanium because they want a custom sized and custom tuned frame and titanium as a material is very suitable for that kind of production. Would you spec your frame for stiffness or for comfort? Would you be using double-butted tubing to keep the weight down? How would you effectively communicate the bike's handling characteristics to propsective on-line buyers? Habanero has a custom geometry option for about $250 more - would you have a similar option?

Some of the custom makers are now offering custom carbon fiber frames as well as combination Ti/carbon frames, because they're finding that carbon has some advantages. It may a step backwards to offer a non-custom Ti frame, because as cheap as you can make it, it still will be too expensive for the performance one actually gets out of it.

ridethecliche

I still think that BD needs to better their customer support infrastructure before venturing into this kind of market. It would really help if people could talk to someone about a warranty issue instead of feeling violated after unanswered emails.

JeffS

Incorrect. They choose titanium for other reason, then get it custom sized because at the typically high price-point it makes sense - and often doesn't affect the cost.

Why is everyone insistent upon comparing them to habanero? There's hundreds of custom steel builders in this country, but you wouldn't give them a hard time for selling (which they do) a PRODUCTION, factory-made, steel bike. There's room for more than one cheaper Ti frame...

Think of it this way... strip a BD carbon bike, put the frame on ebay with no reserve and think about how much it will sell for - next to nothing.

Strip a Ti bike and put the frame on ebay and it will get at least $500. That makes the added cost worthwhile to me.

--------

Then again, it all depends on the specs. You've got people in here wanting anything from Tiagra to Record, S&S couplers to pump pegs and disc brakes. Hardly a consensus.

akatsuki

Well Hab is known for good service too, which, unfortunately, BD seems to have a mixed record on in these forums (I know there are a lot of people who are really against BD, so I take that with a grain of salt).

I think Habanero prices are really good as well. A custom frame for only $100 more. You could go direct to XACD or one of the other Ti builders, but then you had better know what you are doing.

Give us something that looks like an Enigma Eulogy/Effusion at Hab prices, and you will sell a ton. You can't charge a lot unless the Ti is double-butted or even more, you do crazy things with seamless 6/4.

I think a cyclocross bike would be a good choice. I always thought Ti would make for a great audax/randonneuring bike material.

And stick SRAM Red on it.

DocRay

Same can be said for aluminum -our bike rack has 20-30 aluminum frames ridden year around, some are quite old.

sfcrossrider

Make your cross bike ti (cyclocross race bike, NOT touring) and keep it under 2,000 and I'll order one.

Stickney

Yes, but TI frames have negative drag.

I have an alumimum frame, 16 years old, served me well. Looking to replace it, and when I do, it may be with Titanium. Not denegrating aluminum frames, but for me TI works well. Though there are some nice aluminum frames on my list too (Kona JTS for example).

Mostly, this thread is interesting to me because I realized that others out there have interest in a TI XC frame, there are options out there currently, but maybe some frame builders will take notice and offer some additional choices (that, of course, is a pipe dream).

amorrow

Big seller, needed niche: Titanium Winter/Bad weather bike. Plenty of room for fenders, maybe even a rack. Canti mounts to accommodate wide tires. Could be ridden as a cyclocross race bike, but built with more standard road geometry - namely a lower bottom bracket. Plenty of space in the dropouts to allow for single speed adjustments, if that floats your boat. I think you would call this club geometry or a pacer. It would sell to lots of different markets - primarily racers logging winter miles, but also commuters, 'cross riders, club riders. You could put the option of SS couplers and capture the travel bike market. Just don't put TOO many braze ons (front rack, front pannier) or else you'll scare the roadies. That's a bike I would buy. And yes, I will gladly provide my address so you can ship a model for testing.

kraftwerk 

If you make a ti-road bike you will have lots of competition with other ti-road bike's out there (new and used) there are so many to choose from already. If you want to REALLY make some money on a ti frame -- I am only giving you this advice because I feel like I can help you make sales, and perhaphs be a customer, You should make a ti-folder. Folders are the future ... again ! The frame should be under 1000 bucks and people should be able to spec it out as they like, with componets / grouppos you can sell them. Lots of bike fanatics are haveing issues with bike transport on planes etc. They need that fifth bike in their stable to be a folder. A buy they can justify, "Gee, I don't have one of those!" It is a niche market you will make money on this frame, no one builds a ti-folder. Well practically no one they are few and far between. Might be one other manufacturer out there at any given time with a ti-folder they tend to be un-obtainium.... I would say light-weight is the motavation here, you need a light material for transport thru airports trains and taxi's. It also can be faster than a road bike if you set it up properly...
I think they single speed ti frame would also be a good market with not much competition.
+1 > "And yes, I will gladly provide my address so you can ship a model for testing."

Stevewmm just read thru all the posts, I agree with you 100%

kraftwerk 

' Cause we are free! (and give better advice) Market researchers are too busy researching markets and drinking bad coffee. We actually ride, race and drink good coffee.