fwiw, 09 Centaur is a really good buy and a great group.

The fact that the manufacturing is done in the same factory does not mean that the materials, processes, quality control and designs are the same. That said, it's hard to quantify what those differences really mean and none of them will get you a shortcut to the pro tour.

The components make more of a difference to riding pleasure than the frame IMHO

I agree with you that there are differences in the carbon used, but the process is the same as far as the molding process. The fact that you can get a quality sub 1000 gram Pedal Force for $450 on a group buy is evidence of that.

In fact, look at a lot of the threads of guys who own Pedal Force or similiar generic frames. Most of these guys own other high end bikes and still decide to build these bikes into 12-14lb complete bikes which is still and expensive proposition. That is the point of my OP. I feel that if you go high end on components, they are much more likely to be transferred over to a new less expensive frame in say 3 years rather than going for your lungs on a pricier carbon frame every few years.

I love the Isaac Sonic but for over $3k for frameset, I feel I am not getting good value on a lightweight frame that isn't meant to last long. That was the beauty of lightweight aluminum. It was a cheaper material that could be replaced although I didn't get some of the $3k aluminum rigs from Merckx and Colnago a few years back. I know those light Bianchi aluminum rigs were constantly cracking.

However, my 9 speed Dura Ace from 1997 still is solid on my trainer/beater bike. So if I see a complete bike deal from Giant for $3500 for an Ultegra bike/CF frame. I think the Colorado Cyclist CF Matrix with Dura Ace 7900 for $3200 is a better value because that CF frame is no worse than the Giant on a continuum of performance/quality IMO.

Yeah. Definitely frame and components.

Frame and components. Definitely.

Yeah.

Definitely.

http://open.salon.com/files/dustin_h...1218236383.jpg




I'm an excellent driver.

+1...and you sober up quickly when you realize that your body is no longer capable of pushing the performance envelope of the frame you own...or even that of a frame costing half the price.

Think of it this way: My 58 year old ears cannot distinguish the difference between $3000 speakers and $300 speakers, although someone with charts and printouts might be able to prove there really is a difference.

But in line with the other posts above, I can feel smooth shifting and solid brakes regardless of how fast I climb a hill.

The frame is by far more imortant than the components since the frame and only the frame geometry can determine the handling characteristics of the bike, which is of course the most important factor in riding.

Any brand and model of brifter can shift gears effectively and efficiently, I haven't used a shifter that in any way made any difference to my riding, but different frame geometry will give very perceptable handling differences.

How many times do we have to tell you: "don't hit the brakes when you are going up a hill!"

The hill I do hill repeats today, will not get any easier cause I bought a $5,000 bike tomorrow.
I probably won't be able to them faster, and if I do, I can't justify a couple of seconds to $5,000 bucks!

I like your speaker analogy. That was perfect!

I am not talking about frame fit. Obviously fit is paramount, but you can get that on a $800 CF frame or on a $4k frame. I am asking whether putting better components on the $800 generic Taiwanese frame is makes for more wise $ spent rather than on a complete bike where the frame cost dictates spending less money on components and wheels.

I see the HASA carbon frame on Ebay for $400 which is the Merckx CHM which was highly regarded in reviews and sells for $1600 for frameset.

Fixed.

Even if you are totally deaf, you can feel the difference in $3000 and $300 speakers' bass extension.

Sure. If you don't ride it much. Cassettes, chains, chainrings, cables, housing, brifter internals, headsets, bottom brackets and even derailleur pivots all wear out under heavy use, especially if used in inclement weather. After three years, much of that has to be replaced anyway. In fact, I think modern components tend to last less well than older ones. More gears, narrower chains and more complex shifting mechanisms lead to more frequent replacement.

What makes you think high end carbon isn't meant to last long?

Frame, definately. I already have a Bruce Gordon frame which is the ultimate frame for what I want. I can always upgrade components. From Deore LX to Deore XT for example.

I agree with this with one addition. Frames like the Cervelo R3 have this unique combination of stiffness with its massive bottom bracket along with super thin seat stays that even out the bumpy ride. Its not only the geometry, but its the design itself.

The components come off the old bike and onto the new frameset. The big difference is the frameset. I noticed that right away.

Fixed. Power meters are pro equipment. Are you a pro? No.

Well, even with CF frames there are still differences with construction technologies. I however also find it slightly irritating that virtually all major brands lay claim on some magic, secret process that only they know the arcane secrets of, and that imbue their frames with hitherto unheard of qualities.

Yes it is indeed possible to find unbranded frames or minor label frames that are as good. No, not all unbranded or minor label frames are created the same. There are sometimes significant differences in QC and fit and finish. There are also batches that do not quite meet the QC standard which end up on the market but are in fact "B" grade. Also it is important to mention that CF component manufacturing process is not static. The manufacturers constantly try to refine and improve their products, thus a newer batch may be lighter or better made than an earlier batch from the same mold. This happens a lot with carbon rims for example.

My own minor brand frame (Figmo ISP3) that I will build into a bike was chosen based on its geometry. I think that if you choose your "disposable" frame correctly that you can develop a real bond with it as it will feel good and ride well meaning that you may want to hold on to it. I hope I chose correctly.

Regarding groupsets, I am going to give the locally manufactured group sets a go. (made by AD-II engineering in Taiwan for several brands including OEM). The levers look great, feel nice and the derailleurs show promise. I hope they work as the lead times for Shimano group sets are ridiculous and SRAM availability is not much better...and I cannot (do not want to) wait :D


V.

FIGMO is a prime example of what I am talking about. Some guy on weightweenies built up a 12 lb bike by Figmo. To do same on a Storck would have cost over $10k.

Well, actually, you didn't fix it. You just changed my words to make your point.

But, just for sake of argument, I'll agree that I can "feel" the difference between $300 speakers and $3000 speakers. And that difference would be the weight of my wallet and not the quality of sound I am either supposed to hear or feel. Throbbing sensations do not constitute better music.

I'll dispense with the analogy. The point I'm making is this...for the vast majority of cyclists, the marginal benefit of high end brand CF frames made in China/Taiwan compared to similar generic brands made in the same factories is emotional and not physical.

Carbon Fiber bikes are pro equipment. Do you have a point to make, or do you just get a kick out of feeling superior by reminding people that they're not a pro (cause, you know, they forgot about that when they bought a power meter).

This seems like an astonishingly ignorant comment to me. Everyone, back in the day, assembled high-quality frames by silver brazing. The difference was frickin' lug shapes. That's it. Later, TIG welding appeared. Big deal.

There are quite a number of ways to put together a CF frame, on the other hand - monocoque, bonded lugs, tube-to-tube wrapping, etc. That's not to mention different lay-up schedules, mixes of different types of CF, etc. There's a LOT more versatility available in CF frame design. Is it used by the big-name manufacturers? I have no idea. Is it worth paying more for a brand name? Again, I don't know, but the mark-up is certainly more than necessary. Still, carbon fiber has added an entirely new dimension to frame design. You can do things with the stuff that simply wasn't possible with steel or even aluminum. Yeah, you can shape tubes, but that's pretty much it. Carbon fiber allows tube shaping PLUS a host of other options. It's pretty ignorant to believe that old-school builders somehow had more options with which to differentiate their work than modern manufacturers.

I'm not sure that there is any evidence whatsoever that CF tube shapes matter at all, except for aesthetics and marketing (and price). Is it possible that tube shapes are today's lug shapes?

Thus fixing them.


Speakers are the one place in an audio chain where you can truly make a big difference in sound quality.

We aren't talking about the quality of the music but the quality of reproduction. And yes, being able to reproduce the low frequencies produced by a pipe organ performing Bach's Tocatta in D is a significant improvement.

I haven't logged enough miles on enough different high end and generic CF frames to know that. Have you?

Apparently not.

Ignorant? If CF hasn't changed things as far as cheaper production and an ability for almost ANY company to jump onto the carbon frame bandwagon, then why do we see companies like K2, Mongoose, Fuji, Kinesis, Cannondale etc all "making" cf frames? Many of these frames are the EXACT frames made by the big name companies.

The days of some smaller frame maker using highly skilled artisans to weld frames together is over. Taiwanese and chinese labor is cheaper and although they make great CF frames, it is cheaper and easier to manufacture a good CF frame. I used the analogy of not having to spend a fortune on DVD players anymore because "digital is digital". There just isn't that much difference in picture quality amongst a $99 player or a $400 + DVD player and if you think there is, it is all in your need to feel important that you spent more on a $1500 Denon rather than a $150 Sony.

Now I get that a custom Parlee made in USA will cost you more due to production and labor costs which is fine, but to pay the same for a chinese made Cervelo or Ridley made with bladder injected molds for a fraction of price is a poorer value in my opinion. That is why I almost picked up a Ridley on Sierratrading for $735 with coupons last week. A $2k frame for $735 and they still made a big profit.

I have had 3 power-meters and find this to be the least important of any of the fore-mentioned.

I would rate that 105 can shift as well as Dura-Ace. but I would also say a pedal force frame could feel as nice as a Cervelo.

That being said I would rate the importance of parts as : in making the biggest impact on performance/speed assuming everything fits properly -


1. Wheels
2. Frame
3. Components

Powermeter on top of this list , is foolishness. I am in the group that suggest a power-meter takes away from some of the freedoms of riding. although helpful in achieving certain physical goals, they can become consuming. I have achieve my goals without my powermeter as well.

Are you serious? Tube shapes will always matter. They're the only way to get anisotropic qualities out of metal tubes, and will enhance (or counteract, if the designer wishes) anisotropy in carbon tubes achieved through lay-up schedules and different types of carbon fiber.

LazyRider, I'm not especially interested, in this case, as to the extent to which big and small manufacturers are all purchasing "generic" frames and branding them with their own name. I have no doubt that it happens, though you're going to have to produce some actual evidence to convince me or anyone else that what is essentially fraud on a grand scale is actually occurring. There are lots and lots of distinct carbon frames out there. The question you're asking is whether the R&D that goes into a Specialized Tarmac is worth so much more than what goes into a generic Pedal Force, and the answer you're giving is "no." I think that the the mark-up is undoubtedly excessive, but that there probably are quantitative differences in frame quality (in the sense of ride quality, not quality control). But that's beside the point.

You seem to be suggesting that there was more variability in frame-building techniques and processes in the days of lugged and welded steel than there is now. I'm trying to explain that this notion is patently absurd. There were of course different levels of skill and QC (so what else is new?), but frame design and building at that time was really quite straightforward: design a frame with geometry appropriate to the intended purpose, cut tubes from lightweight bicycle tubeset X, use investment cast lugs with silver brazing to join tubes, paint, brand, finish.

Builders these days who choose to work with CF have a lot more design options available to them, if they choose to take advantage of them (or if they can afford to). There are a number of very different techniques one can use to create a carbon fiber frame, in addition to a dimension of frame design having to do with the directional nature of CF that probably most engineers haven't fully come to grips with yet.

Furthermore, the fact that, say, a Cannondale and Pedal Force come from the same factory and look superficially similar does not necessarily mean that they are the same frame! They might be; this certainly happens. But just because a factory has designs that it's getting from Cannondale, or that Pedal Force is paying them to produce one of their generic frames under the PF brand name does not necessarily imply any commonality in frame design or materials. Look at overseas production of steel frames - you don't see much in the way of people accusing the industry just rebranding generic frames that happen to come from the same factory in the same way that you do with CF. And yet, it's likely to be at least as prevalent. Easier to pull off, too. Steel frames can be made to look just as generic, and they've been producing them for a lot longer.

I can't believe anyone would think components are more important than the frame. High end components are for bling and bragging, they push the chain around, and all the groups get it done. I'm not saying I don't like high end components, but the frame is way more important.