I would like someone to explain to me this notion of a CF frame as a "throwaway" frame.

That's just for people with a lot more money than we have. :D

It should be required that anyone visiting this website must take their Midol first.

The notion that all CF frames are the same is simply not right. Pedal Force comes up a lot as a benchmark of cheep well made frames. I was part of the ZX3 group buy. I was so unhappy with the way the ZX3 handled that I sold it after my first ride. Since then I have bought another CF frame a 2000 C40 Colnago. What a world of difference. The Colnago has all the comfort of the PF but handles 10 times better. I will buy another CF bike someday, but it wont be a cheep one. As for components I like the Campy Record 10 speed so that's what's on my bikes. There is no reason to choose between a great frame and fine components, I want them both.

It really depends on the specific differential. On a really nice carbon frame, the switch from dura-ace to tiagra may up the bike's weight enough to affect handling, while many nice carbon road frames ride similarly.

On the other hand, most shifting groups work just fine at the entry level, all the way down to shimano sora, with the major difference being weight. So, if you ride with a large load or don't care about weight, a group change wouldn't make much a difference.

Depending on the amount of money you have to spend, and how you plan ride your bike, either one may be more important. I'd say that the more *standard* your bike will end up being, the more important the componentry is. This is because many mainstream road frames have pretty established, conventional geometry.
Standard, in this case, means mainstream-- road racing-style bikes with 700c wheels, drop bars, no provisions for fenders or racks, integrated shifting systems, and an aggressive riding position

The further away you get away from that, the more variations there are in frame design and geometry, and the more important frame choice becomes. Touring, cyclocross, commuting, and city bike geometries can vary widely, as can be the specific acommodations they provide-- brake types, tire clearance, chainlines, drivetrain types, etc.

The cost of the Pedal Force and the fact that you didn't like the handling aren't related. I owned a $3300 frameset that I didn't like the way it handled or rode. But I assure you that the Colnago CLX that is made in China isn't significantly better made than a Pedal Force or a Douglas Matrix.

My question really is meant to look at quality lower cost frames and putting say Dura Ace on them rather than going with a Pinarello and putting Sram Rival on it.

This is the Douglas that CC is selling for $3200 with Dura Ace 7900 and expensive 3t carbon seatpost, stem and handlebars. Wheelset is average but solid. Personally, I think this bike and what they are able to sell it for is indicative of the markup on CF frames. I doubt that many CF frames out there are significantly "better" than this frame as far as performance and quality. Some people would invariably prefer the ride of this frame over a stiffer frame.

A Cervelo S2 with this configuration would cost $5500. Is that $2300 difference in frame cost justified? With Dura Ace, you know build quality is consistent, but with the frames, who knows how much "better" that Cervelo is over a Douglas. It is more marketing and hype than anything objective. $2300 of your dollars helps to pay for advertising and cyclist's salaries.

I just feel that the mystique and aura of a handmade frame from a builder is gone and replaced by the marketing hype of higher technology to justify the higher prices in the CF manufacturing world. I wouldn't nor would any of you pay $500k for a Ferrari made in Taiwan.

http://gallery.roadbikereview.com/da...0/dxxaarh3.jpg

Where you should spend your pennies in order of importance: (1) Frame/Fork (2) Wheelset (3) Components. DA will not make you faster than Ultegra. Record will not make you faster than Chorus. But the right wheelset will make all the difference. The right frame/fork will make an even bigger impact. You feel great after 100 mi ... or totally thrashed. Component group will have virtually no impact whatsoever. The proper frame (for your type of riding) absolutely will.

Best.

I couldn't disagree more.

The ride quality of the frame is with you every single minute that you're on the bike. So what percentage of the time are you actually shifting? I'm thinking that 1% would be way too high.

Says the guy with a Seven, a Wilier, and two Orbeas.

Haha! True (almost). A Seven, Wilier (on its way), OPERA Palladio and an Orbea Opal that's being sold (soon to pay for the Wilier, hopefully)! My statement was half serious. I wouldn't call any of my frames "throwaway" regardless of material. I also said that to a guy with 3 Cervelos and a total fleet of 13 bikes (i believe he said). :thumb:

frame more important...

why? because fit and comfort is probably the single most important factor you how much fun you have, how fast you go, and how often you ride. also...it's easier to change out this component or that component...harder to change frame. consider minor crashes....i've been in half a dozen minor crashes...my frame never suffers damage...but my handlebar, skewer, pedal, brifter always get scratched up. and finally...i have SRAM Rival on my specialized roubaix...i now have SRAM Red on my Look 595. you know what? they both work the same...they feel pretty much the same...one is just more blingy. it's all bling.

Do you remember the Corvette sting ray days? Back in the 1960's the Corvette was the only fiberglass body American made car. Great sports car, but the fiberglass body was always in need of maintenance, the expensive kind.

Today, to fix a carbon fiber damage, you have to consider taking it to experts in the field like Calfee Designs.

Audio speakers are very important. Trouble is today not too many people go to live musical performances. I mean acoustical music, not the electronic music with guitar amps and sound engineers sitting at million dollar consoles in rock concerts.

Back in my days, the bass had to be tight, not boomy. But nowadays due to the popularity of subsonic woofers, and movies that make you shake with a rumble, its not really "real".

Unfortunately the closest thing people get these days are those silly Irish girls singing and playing their amplified violins.

Between Dura Ace and Ultegra maybe. But between the upper end and the lower end group sets, it would bother me a lot more than 1%. Creaky brakes and small annoying drive train noises drive me crazy.

Yes. That's what I was getting at more or less.

I think there is a minimum for both. After that it is all just bling, status and weight.

If I were buying a bike from scratch today, I would personally just pick up a cheap Hasa CF frame off of eBay or a Pedalforce and a BD bike or a GVH build kit for parts (minimum Shimano 105). The minimum required for a decent frame has dropped a lot. Get some Neuvation or Soul wheels and you have a very competitive budget bike. Maybe spend more on some Reynolds or Edge wheels (the Attack is probably the sweet spot of value in their line-up).

You would have a very competitive bike that you probably would never really outgrow for $2K or less. Of course you might not have service on the frame, but it was cheap enough you could just buy another.

I do think frames are easier to buy and sell used, so if given the choice, I'd probably get a higher end component group over a "better" frame.

As for supposed frame quality - you could have a Parlee or Look, and if a $500 eBay special fits you better, then you bought the wrong frame. Fit and style matters more than anything else.

+2

I just want to share a recent experience that I had with a CF frame builder...

They suggested that I make my own molds. I though "WTF, how can that be a good idea? It would cost me an arm and a leg and I'd need to make and inventory hundreds of frames for this to make any sense, besides I am not a bike frame engineer [incredible, but true]"

What I said was: "Oh really? How much would that cost? ...and I have no idea how to design bike frames."

What they said was a price (stupidly low) followed by a, relevant to this thread comment, "...and you do not need to design a new frame. Just pick the one you like, and change it a little. That is what everybody does."

I am sure that everybody was a sweeping statement, but to me it indicates that many of the frames today come to life using that high tech process. The scientific rationale and magic manufacturing techniques come later during the marketing phase.

EDIT: I just re-read this and thought it was kind of silly. Of course almost all new things, barring transformational technology or science, are improved analogues of the current things. I cannot imagine any successful engineering meeting for a marketable product going like: "Ok let's design a new bike frame, but it has to look completely different to anything that we or anyone else has designed before."


V.

It might be that CC looks at the frame as a loss leader and gets their margin on the components and wheels. In other words, the frame is provided at cost and the components make all of their profit. It's like movie theaters that show the films at cost and make their profit on popcorn.

That would make sense given the market's insatiable demand for brands, regardless of any measurable benefit. And given that most CF frames are built by a relatively small number of Asian factories, it would be pretty easy to make a bulk purchase of a the generic equivalent of a name brand frame, rebadge it, build it out, and make your bucks on the components.

What other reason than cost would anyone buy a Colorado Cyclist Douglas Matrix?

Cyclists are worse than golfers when it comes to throwing money at equipment to improve their game. "Gimme what Tiger uses"... as if their handicap would go from 15 to scratch.

1. Frameset
2. Wheelset
3. Groupset

wut?

Many of those frames LOOK exactly the same, may have even made in the same molds, but that doesn't mean it's the same frame. Take the Specialized frames... the different Tarmac models all ride noticeably differently. There is a relatively large difference in the characteristics of the frame just based on the quality and quantity of the materials used. Just like with traditional materials there are different levels of steel tubing, different aluminium alloys, etc.

This is a point I was trying to make when I used the analogy of the clothing industry. A lot of these frames come from the same molds or similar ones and the processes are the same while the companies put out long and elaborate marketing materials to "differentiate themselves". It is the dirty little secret of manufacturing industry. Like I said most of what Cervelo, Pinarello, Giant, etc say in their ads is bull#$#.

Actually, it isn't. There are numerous contractual issues that prevent factories from just doing an additional run of generics and selling them with different decals. I'm sure it happens illegally now and then, but do you really want to trust the quality control and warranty of black market goods?

Most important: the money with which to buy any of it.