How to ask/answer questions the smart way
04-28-09, 09:04 AM
#76
Junk Mile Junkie
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Webster, NY
Posts: 6,465
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Seriously, do people actually think that people posting without following the guidelines of the OP is an issue? Please explain how that affects you in a negative way?
04-28-09, 09:08 AM
#77
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,754
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Don't give me any credit for this. I read something very similar a long time ago and decided that the same dynamic existed here to some extent. So, with careful editing and substitution, it might be a useful resource to the new user on this forum.
If you want to find the original source of what I refer to, google "Foonly Flurbamatic 2600" - Seriously.
Comments are appreciated.
I agree with all of it, but I'd be happy to remove something if you can talk me into it.
Introduction
In Road Cycling (RC), the kind of answers you get to your technical questions depends as much on the way you ask the questions as on how interesting your topic is. I hope that this thread can teach you how to ask questions in a way more likely to get you a satisfactory answer and in a way that lacks a nasty discourse that is all too common here.
The first thing to understand is that (at least I think) the RC community actually likes helping new and relatively inexperienced cyclists. If we didn't, we wouldn't be here. If you give us a good question you are quite likely to give us the dialog necessary to discuss things we might have not thought about too much before. This stimulus is the lifeblood of a good forum.
Despite this, the RC community has a reputation for meeting simple questions with what looks like hostility or arrogance. It sometimes looks like we're reflexively rude to newbies and the ignorant. I don't believe this is really true. We are hostile to people who seem to be unwilling to think or to do their own homework before asking questions. This isn't limited to "newbies".
If you find this attitude obnoxious, condescending, or arrogant, check your assumptions. We're not asking you to genuflect to us - I believe most of us would be quite happy to deal with you as an equal and welcome you into our culture. But you must in the effort required to make that possible. But it's simply not efficient for us to try to help people who are not willing to help themselves. It's OK to be ignorant; it's not OK to play stupid in a ploy to be lazy.
If you decide to come to us for help, you don't want to be one of these "slackers". You don't want to seem like one, either. And we don't want your thread to become useless drivel with no point yet filled with nonsensical bickering and ad hominem attacks. The best way to get a rapid and responsive answer is to ask it like a person with intelligence, confidence, and tact who just happens to need help on one particular problem.
Before you ask
Be patient. Take your time. Do not expect to be able to solve a complicated problem with a few seconds of Googling. Read and understand the FAQs, sit back, relax and give the problem some thought before approaching experts [we're not all experts for sure]. Trust us, they will be able to tell from your questions how much reading and thinking you did, and will be more willing to help if you come prepared. The goal is as much developing your understanding as it is to get past a single hurdle.
Prepare your question. Think it through. Hasty-sounding questions get hasty answers, or none at all. The more you do to demonstrate that having put thought and effort into solving your problem before seeking help, the more likely you are to actually get meaningful help. The less thought put into the question, the more likely the thread will devolve into the sort of thread that no one is proud of.
Beware of asking the wrong question. If you ask one that is based on faulty assumptions, Mr. RoadNazi is quite likely to reply with a uselessly literal answer while thinking "Stupid question...", and hoping the experience of getting what you asked for rather than what you needed will teach you a lesson.
Never assume you are entitled to an answer. This is a key point. After all, you are not paying for the service. You can earn an answer by asking a substantial, interesting, and on-topic question - one that implicitly contributes to and draws on the experience of the community rather than merely passively demanding knowledge from others. The right question can educate many.
When you ask
Write in clear, grammatically correct and correctly-spelled language
Expressing your question clearly and well is important. If you can't be bothered to do that, we can't be bothered to pay attention. Spend the extra effort to polish your language. Perfection is not desired, simply must be evidence that you're thinking and paying attention.
Spell, punctuate, and capitalize correctly. Don't confuse "its" with "it's", "loose" with "lose", or "break" with "brake". Don't TYPE IN ALL CAPS; this is read as shouting and considered rude. (All-smalls is only slightly less annoying, as it's difficult to read. botto can get away with it, but you can't.)
More generally, if you write like a semi-literate boob you will very likely be ignored by most and attacked by others. So don't use instant-messaging shortcuts. Spelling "you" as "u" makes you look like a semi-literate boob to save two entire keystrokes. Worse: writing like a l33t script kiddie hax0r is the absolute kiss of death and guarantees you will receive nothing jeers and abuse.
If you are asking questions in a forum that does not use your native language, you will get a limited amount of slack for spelling and grammar errors. You should state this, but no apology is necessary. After all, you probably speak English better than I speak your native tongue. However, you will receive no extra slack for laziness.
Grovelling is not a substitute for doing your homework
Some people who get that they shouldn't behave rudely or arrogantly, demanding an answer, attempt the opposite extreme of grovelling. "I know I'm just a pathetic newbie loser, but...". This may be distracting and unhelpful. It's especially annoying when it's coupled with vagueness about the actual problem.
Instead, present the background facts and your question as clearly as you can. That is a better way to position yourself than by grovelling.
Don't flag your question as "Urgent", even if it is for you
That's your problem, not ours. Claiming urgency is very likely to be counter-productive: such threads are assumed to be rude and selfish attempts to elicit immediate and special attention. However, it is possible if you're under time pressure, (and you say so politely) people may get interested enough to answer faster. Your risk, your reward.
Courtesy never hurts, and sometimes helps
Be courteous. Use "Please" and "Thanks for your attention" or "Thanks for your consideration". Make it clear you appreciate the time people spend helping you for free.
Follow up with a brief note on the solution
Follow up on your thread after the problem has been solved; let us know how it came out and thank those who helped again for their efforts.
Your followup doesn't have to be long and involved; a simple "Howdy - it was the derailer adjustment! Thanks, everyone. - Bill" would be better than nothing. A short and sweet summary is about perfect.
If the solution involved a vendor "going the extra mile" to resolve the problem, that would be useful information as well.
Besides being courteous and informative, this sort of followup will help others searching the archive of the forum to know exactly which solution helped you and thus may also help them. Consider how you might be able to prevent others from having the same problem in the future.
How to answer questions in a helpful way
If you want to find the original source of what I refer to, google "Foonly Flurbamatic 2600" - Seriously.
Comments are appreciated.
I agree with all of it, but I'd be happy to remove something if you can talk me into it.Introduction
In Road Cycling (RC), the kind of answers you get to your technical questions depends as much on the way you ask the questions as on how interesting your topic is. I hope that this thread can teach you how to ask questions in a way more likely to get you a satisfactory answer and in a way that lacks a nasty discourse that is all too common here.
The first thing to understand is that (at least I think) the RC community actually likes helping new and relatively inexperienced cyclists. If we didn't, we wouldn't be here. If you give us a good question you are quite likely to give us the dialog necessary to discuss things we might have not thought about too much before. This stimulus is the lifeblood of a good forum.
Despite this, the RC community has a reputation for meeting simple questions with what looks like hostility or arrogance. It sometimes looks like we're reflexively rude to newbies and the ignorant. I don't believe this is really true. We are hostile to people who seem to be unwilling to think or to do their own homework before asking questions. This isn't limited to "newbies".
If you find this attitude obnoxious, condescending, or arrogant, check your assumptions. We're not asking you to genuflect to us - I believe most of us would be quite happy to deal with you as an equal and welcome you into our culture. But you must in the effort required to make that possible. But it's simply not efficient for us to try to help people who are not willing to help themselves. It's OK to be ignorant; it's not OK to play stupid in a ploy to be lazy.
If you decide to come to us for help, you don't want to be one of these "slackers". You don't want to seem like one, either. And we don't want your thread to become useless drivel with no point yet filled with nonsensical bickering and ad hominem attacks. The best way to get a rapid and responsive answer is to ask it like a person with intelligence, confidence, and tact who just happens to need help on one particular problem.
Before you ask
- Try to find an answer by searching the archives of the forum you plan to post to.
- Try to find an answer by searching the Web.
- Try to find an answer by reading the manual or FAQ/Wiki.
- Try to find an answer by inspection or experimentation.
- Try to find an answer by asking a skilled friend.
Be patient. Take your time. Do not expect to be able to solve a complicated problem with a few seconds of Googling. Read and understand the FAQs, sit back, relax and give the problem some thought before approaching experts [we're not all experts for sure]. Trust us, they will be able to tell from your questions how much reading and thinking you did, and will be more willing to help if you come prepared. The goal is as much developing your understanding as it is to get past a single hurdle.
Prepare your question. Think it through. Hasty-sounding questions get hasty answers, or none at all. The more you do to demonstrate that having put thought and effort into solving your problem before seeking help, the more likely you are to actually get meaningful help. The less thought put into the question, the more likely the thread will devolve into the sort of thread that no one is proud of.
Beware of asking the wrong question. If you ask one that is based on faulty assumptions, Mr. RoadNazi is quite likely to reply with a uselessly literal answer while thinking "Stupid question...", and hoping the experience of getting what you asked for rather than what you needed will teach you a lesson.
Never assume you are entitled to an answer. This is a key point. After all, you are not paying for the service. You can earn an answer by asking a substantial, interesting, and on-topic question - one that implicitly contributes to and draws on the experience of the community rather than merely passively demanding knowledge from others. The right question can educate many.
When you ask
- Choose your forum carefully - Be sensitive in choosing where you ask your question.
- Don't post your question to a forum where it's off topic
- Don't cross-post to too many different forums
- Don't badger an individual who is neither an acquaintance of yours nor personally responsible for solving your problem
- If a picture is required, such as when describing a crack or physical defect, post it with the defect in focus and don't make us ask for it.
Write in clear, grammatically correct and correctly-spelled language
Expressing your question clearly and well is important. If you can't be bothered to do that, we can't be bothered to pay attention. Spend the extra effort to polish your language. Perfection is not desired, simply must be evidence that you're thinking and paying attention.
Spell, punctuate, and capitalize correctly. Don't confuse "its" with "it's", "loose" with "lose", or "break" with "brake". Don't TYPE IN ALL CAPS; this is read as shouting and considered rude. (All-smalls is only slightly less annoying, as it's difficult to read. botto can get away with it, but you can't.)
More generally, if you write like a semi-literate boob you will very likely be ignored by most and attacked by others. So don't use instant-messaging shortcuts. Spelling "you" as "u" makes you look like a semi-literate boob to save two entire keystrokes. Worse: writing like a l33t script kiddie hax0r is the absolute kiss of death and guarantees you will receive nothing jeers and abuse.
If you are asking questions in a forum that does not use your native language, you will get a limited amount of slack for spelling and grammar errors. You should state this, but no apology is necessary. After all, you probably speak English better than I speak your native tongue. However, you will receive no extra slack for laziness.
Grovelling is not a substitute for doing your homework
Some people who get that they shouldn't behave rudely or arrogantly, demanding an answer, attempt the opposite extreme of grovelling. "I know I'm just a pathetic newbie loser, but...". This may be distracting and unhelpful. It's especially annoying when it's coupled with vagueness about the actual problem.
Instead, present the background facts and your question as clearly as you can. That is a better way to position yourself than by grovelling.
Don't flag your question as "Urgent", even if it is for you
That's your problem, not ours. Claiming urgency is very likely to be counter-productive: such threads are assumed to be rude and selfish attempts to elicit immediate and special attention. However, it is possible if you're under time pressure, (and you say so politely) people may get interested enough to answer faster. Your risk, your reward.
Courtesy never hurts, and sometimes helps
Be courteous. Use "Please" and "Thanks for your attention" or "Thanks for your consideration". Make it clear you appreciate the time people spend helping you for free.
Follow up with a brief note on the solution
Follow up on your thread after the problem has been solved; let us know how it came out and thank those who helped again for their efforts.
Your followup doesn't have to be long and involved; a simple "Howdy - it was the derailer adjustment! Thanks, everyone. - Bill" would be better than nothing. A short and sweet summary is about perfect.
If the solution involved a vendor "going the extra mile" to resolve the problem, that would be useful information as well.
Besides being courteous and informative, this sort of followup will help others searching the archive of the forum to know exactly which solution helped you and thus may also help them. Consider how you might be able to prevent others from having the same problem in the future.
How to answer questions in a helpful way
- Be gentle. Problem-related stress can make people seem rude or stupid even when they're not.
- Reply to a first offender off-line. There is no need of public humiliation for someone who may have made an honest mistake. A real newbie may not know how to search archives or where the FAQ is stored or posted.
- If you don't know for sure, say so! A wrong but authoritative-sounding answer is worse than none at all. Don't point anyone down a wrong path simply because it's fun to sound like an expert. Be humble and honest; set a good example for both the querent and your peers.
- If you can't help, don't hinder. Don't jokingly suggest things that could injure or destroy because the poor sap might interpret these as instructions.
- Ask probing questions to elicit more details. Try to turn the bad question into a good one; remember we were all newbies once.
- While muttering "use the search feature" is sometimes justified when replying to someone who is just a lazy slob, a well constructed link is better.
- Your credibility should be important to you. Volunteer an answer if you have one, but don't be afraid to acknowledge a better answer that might appear as part of the thread dialog.
- Answering one good question is like feeding a hungry person one meal, but teaching them research skills by example is showing them how to grow food for a lifetime.
04-28-09, 09:31 AM
#78
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
Congrats
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
04-28-09, 09:31 AM
#79
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
04-28-09, 10:39 AM
#80
Chepooka
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Central PA
Posts: 1,179
Bikes: 1990 Trek 1400 7spd; 2001 Litespeed Arenberg 10 speed
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1110 Post(s)
Liked 1,090 Times
in
671 Posts
...
the people (kid?) that wrote those guidelines still live in their mom's basement. i'll say it again 'cause it's true. i'm guessing their stepdad came down with some guidelines for them (no more combat boots on the carpet, damn! no trench coats in the house? dang it), so they in turn had to lay down the law on teh netz.
...
the people (kid?) that wrote those guidelines still live in their mom's basement. i'll say it again 'cause it's true. i'm guessing their stepdad came down with some guidelines for them (no more combat boots on the carpet, damn! no trench coats in the house? dang it), so they in turn had to lay down the law on teh netz.
...
You'll need to learn to read past others' biases and form your own opinions.
04-28-09, 10:47 AM
#81
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
I now understand your unhealthy obsession with the original source. You made it short and sweet.
You'll need to learn to read past others' biases and form your own opinions.
You'll need to learn to read past others' biases and form your own opinions.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
04-28-09, 10:49 AM
#82
Junk Mile Junkie
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Webster, NY
Posts: 6,465
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
StupidlyBrave, you felt it necessary to post a 2000 word essay on how to ask questions. I have a simple one for you, others should feel free to answer.
How does a thread started by someone that does not follow your guidelines affect you in a negative way?
How does a thread started by someone that does not follow your guidelines affect you in a negative way?
04-28-09, 11:03 AM
#83
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This is one of the stupidest OP I've ever read. In a nutshell, don't ask 99% of questions, do it all yourself.
The reason people ask questions is to save time. If there's an answer at hand, or possibly so, and the question is not obvious, why should I go back and start a research project? And a lot of questions are based on asking somebody's experience.
If you want to be a dick to somebody with a question, that's fine. But don't try to pretend like it's anything other than a guy with a bike being a dick.
The reason people ask questions is to save time. If there's an answer at hand, or possibly so, and the question is not obvious, why should I go back and start a research project? And a lot of questions are based on asking somebody's experience.
If you want to be a dick to somebody with a question, that's fine. But don't try to pretend like it's anything other than a guy with a bike being a dick.
04-28-09, 11:09 AM
#84
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
They are not 'his' guidelines, nor are they currently BF guidelines. I'm sorry if a valued member offering suggestions offends you...well actually I am not. If you don't like what he's suggesting, take your own advice and don't both replying to the thread.
FYI, SB has proven to be one of the most valued members of this forum time and time again...something you have yet to do IMO. I understand your jealousy though, SB is accepted and respected...something you seem to crave but have, as of yet, failed to achieve. Wonder why? Hey, there's another good question you could be asking yourself!
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
04-28-09, 11:11 AM
#85
Shuckin' and Jivin'
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 317
Bikes: Giant OCR3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This is one of the stupidest OP I've ever read. In a nutshell, don't ask 99% of questions, do it all yourself.
The reason people ask questions is to save time. If there's an answer at hand, or possibly so, and the question is not obvious, why should I go back and start a research project? And a lot of questions are based on asking somebody's experience.
If you want to be a dick to somebody with a question, that's fine. But don't try to pretend like it's anything other than a guy with a bike being a dick.
The reason people ask questions is to save time. If there's an answer at hand, or possibly so, and the question is not obvious, why should I go back and start a research project? And a lot of questions are based on asking somebody's experience.
If you want to be a dick to somebody with a question, that's fine. But don't try to pretend like it's anything other than a guy with a bike being a dick.
04-28-09, 11:12 AM
#86
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
This is one of the stupidest OP I've ever read. In a nutshell, don't ask 99% of questions, do it all yourself.
The reason people ask questions is to save time. If there's an answer at hand, or possibly so, and the question is not obvious, why should I go back and start a research project? And a lot of questions are based on asking somebody's experience.
If you want to be a dick to somebody with a question, that's fine. But don't try to pretend like it's anything other than a guy with a bike being a dick.
The reason people ask questions is to save time. If there's an answer at hand, or possibly so, and the question is not obvious, why should I go back and start a research project? And a lot of questions are based on asking somebody's experience.
If you want to be a dick to somebody with a question, that's fine. But don't try to pretend like it's anything other than a guy with a bike being a dick.
I think the dick is in your mirror.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
04-28-09, 11:13 AM
#87
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
Not hardly, but of course after a few weeks you're a BF expert and know everything there is to know about the culture here, so I guess I shouldn't correct you after all. Carry on, turkey.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
04-28-09, 11:15 AM
#88
Junk Mile Junkie
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Webster, NY
Posts: 6,465
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
How about you answer that question yourself, concerning this thread?
They are not 'his' guidelines, nor are they currently BF guidelines. I'm sorry if a valued member offering suggestions offends you...well actually I am not. If you don't like what he's suggesting, take your own advice and don't both replying to the thread.
FYI, SB has proven to be one of the most valued members of this forum time and time again...something you have yet to do IMO. I understand your jealousy though, SB is accepted and respected...something you seem to crave but have, as of yet, failed to achieve. Wonder why? Hey, there's another good question you could be asking yourself!
They are not 'his' guidelines, nor are they currently BF guidelines. I'm sorry if a valued member offering suggestions offends you...well actually I am not. If you don't like what he's suggesting, take your own advice and don't both replying to the thread.
FYI, SB has proven to be one of the most valued members of this forum time and time again...something you have yet to do IMO. I understand your jealousy though, SB is accepted and respected...something you seem to crave but have, as of yet, failed to achieve. Wonder why? Hey, there's another good question you could be asking yourself!
04-28-09, 11:17 AM
#89
Shuckin' and Jivin'
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 317
Bikes: Giant OCR3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
People are on here b/c THEY HAVE time.
If responding to someone is too much of a bother then maybe they should go elsewhere.
The point of a messageboard isn't to hinder discussion but rather foster it, whether it's repeat topics or not.
04-28-09, 11:20 AM
#90
Shuckin' and Jivin'
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 317
Bikes: Giant OCR3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I frequent other messageboards where I've been a member for over 5 years so I know how boards work and understand the "hazing" period.
The fact that you have been a member here longer means nothing to me so keep your superiority complex going buddy and enjoy looking down your nose.
There's one of you on every site I've ever frequented.
04-28-09, 11:21 AM
#91
Junk Mile Junkie
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Webster, NY
Posts: 6,465
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
How about you answer that question yourself, concerning this thread?
They are not 'his' guidelines, nor are they currently BF guidelines. I'm sorry if a valued member offering suggestions offends you...well actually I am not. If you don't like what he's suggesting, take your own advice and don't both replying to the thread.
FYI, SB has proven to be one of the most valued members of this forum time and time again...something you have yet to do IMO. I understand your jealousy though, SB is accepted and respected...something you seem to crave but have, as of yet, failed to achieve. Wonder why? Hey, there's another good question you could be asking yourself!
They are not 'his' guidelines, nor are they currently BF guidelines. I'm sorry if a valued member offering suggestions offends you...well actually I am not. If you don't like what he's suggesting, take your own advice and don't both replying to the thread.
FYI, SB has proven to be one of the most valued members of this forum time and time again...something you have yet to do IMO. I understand your jealousy though, SB is accepted and respected...something you seem to crave but have, as of yet, failed to achieve. Wonder why? Hey, there's another good question you could be asking yourself!
04-28-09, 11:22 AM
#92
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
Many of us love answering questions...but that is NOT why we come here. We come here to spend some time with friends talking about a common passion - cycling. So while we don't mind answering questions as we do that, answering the same old questions, asked thousands of times before, by people who are so needy that they can't be bothered to do a simple search, gets old fast. Road Forum Regs love helping those who take at least some minimal effort to help themselves....not so much for lazy people who want their hands held while taking warm showers and singing Kumbaya.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
04-28-09, 11:27 AM
#93
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
a. read the faq, if available
b. search for answers to the same question
c. lurk and get to know the culture/personalities/tone of the forum before posting.
What part of these concepts, that have been common for much longer than 5 years, are new and unreasonable to an 'old hand'
like you?
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
04-28-09, 11:27 AM
#94
Shuckin' and Jivin'
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 317
Bikes: Giant OCR3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
What you think and the history of forums, chats, discussion groups, BBs and newsgroups don't seem to jibe. What was outlined is common and hardly negative.
Many of us love answering questions...but that is NOT why we come here. We come here to spend some time with friends talking about a common passion - cycling. So while we don't mind answering questions as we do that, answering the same old questions, asked thousands of times before, by people who are so needy that they can't be bothered to do a simple search, gets old fast. Road Forum Regs love helping those who take at least some minimal effort to help themselves....not so much for lazy people who want their hands held while taking warm showers and singing Kumbaya.
Many of us love answering questions...but that is NOT why we come here. We come here to spend some time with friends talking about a common passion - cycling. So while we don't mind answering questions as we do that, answering the same old questions, asked thousands of times before, by people who are so needy that they can't be bothered to do a simple search, gets old fast. Road Forum Regs love helping those who take at least some minimal effort to help themselves....not so much for lazy people who want their hands held while taking warm showers and singing Kumbaya.
04-28-09, 11:30 AM
#95
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
It's funny you see me that way. I come here for 2 reasons. I learn a lot, and I have fun. Being accepted isn't really a big deal for me. I know what I think, I know what I believe, and what others think of that won't change me. I have a lot to learn, and even the biggest jerks on here have taught me much. If trying to understand how the bike culture works looks like trying to fit in, well so be it.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
04-28-09, 11:32 AM
#96
Junk Mile Junkie
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Webster, NY
Posts: 6,465
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
What you think and the history of forums, chats, discussion groups, BBs and newsgroups don't seem to jibe. What was outlined is common and hardly negative.
Many of us love answering questions...but that is NOT why we come here. We come here to spend some time with friends talking about a common passion - cycling. So while we don't mind answering questions as we do that, answering the same old questions, asked thousands of times before, by people who are so needy that they can't be bothered to do a simple search, gets old fast. Road Forum Regs love helping those who take at least some minimal effort to help themselves....not so much for lazy people who want their hands held while taking warm showers and singing Kumbaya.
Many of us love answering questions...but that is NOT why we come here. We come here to spend some time with friends talking about a common passion - cycling. So while we don't mind answering questions as we do that, answering the same old questions, asked thousands of times before, by people who are so needy that they can't be bothered to do a simple search, gets old fast. Road Forum Regs love helping those who take at least some minimal effort to help themselves....not so much for lazy people who want their hands held while taking warm showers and singing Kumbaya.
Let's use and example. Why do people shave legs. This can go one of many ways.
A person can ignore it. If everyone does ignore it, sooner or later it disappears. At that point, the person will have to do what is outlined in the OP if he wants the answer.
A person can answer it. Again, soon it too disappears, but the person got the answer, and maybe more than one person.
A person or people can reply with an attitude, which in the end serves only the person or people that didn't have to reply to begin with.
To me, it's all about control.
04-28-09, 11:41 AM
#97
Junk Mile Junkie
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Webster, NY
Posts: 6,465
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
psst...I'll let you in on a little secret...this thread has less to do with 'bike culture' and more to do with 'internet forum' culture. Nobody is trying to 'change' you or really cares about you one way or another...we just ask that you take a little time to do some basic homework before asking others to complete it for you.
The people you refer to, the "we" that come here to talk may account for the majority of the posts, but are in reality a small group compared to the constant flow of noobs. The replies to the simplest questions often answer a lot of questions for a lot of noobs.
I suggest that they change the racing sub to Roadies.
04-28-09, 01:10 PM
#98
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
Maybe I'm missing something. Is there some rule that says people have to read threads?
Let's use and example. Why do people shave legs. This can go one of many ways.
A person can ignore it. If everyone does ignore it, sooner or later it disappears. At that point, the person will have to do what is outlined in the OP if he wants the answer.
A person can answer it. Again, soon it too disappears, but the person got the answer, and maybe more than one person.
A person or people can reply with an attitude, which in the end serves only the person or people that didn't have to reply to begin with.
To me, it's all about control.
Let's use and example. Why do people shave legs. This can go one of many ways.
A person can ignore it. If everyone does ignore it, sooner or later it disappears. At that point, the person will have to do what is outlined in the OP if he wants the answer.
A person can answer it. Again, soon it too disappears, but the person got the answer, and maybe more than one person.
A person or people can reply with an attitude, which in the end serves only the person or people that didn't have to reply to begin with.
To me, it's all about control.
If experienced people just ignored the threads with questions asked a million times, then the noob questions wouldn't get answered...or they would get answered by some know-it-all show-off who wants to feel important, but really doesn't know what he/she is talking about. Then of course noobs who DO take the time to do a search find these threads with the BS answers (or with the resulting flame wars because someone called them on it) and the incorrect answers get perpetuated as fact...and in some cases get somebody hurt. (think A&S topics) This is not what we want. The vast majority of experienced members don't mind helping people with their questions....as long as the people with the questions make it a little easier on them by doing a little homework on their own first.
It's about good manners being a two-way street...if you want to be treated with respect and get answers to your questions, have some respect for the people you are asking and do a little research on your own first. Google, if not our native search, is your friend...as are threads like SB started here that...albeit perhaps in a condensed version.
Question (open to everyone): Would you utilize FAQ or Wiki type info to seek answers to your basic questions if one were available?
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
04-28-09, 01:10 PM
#99
Chepooka
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Central PA
Posts: 1,179
Bikes: 1990 Trek 1400 7spd; 2001 Litespeed Arenberg 10 speed
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1110 Post(s)
Liked 1,090 Times
in
671 Posts
Maybe I'm missing something. Is there some rule that says people have to read threads?
Let's use and example. Why do people shave legs. This can go one of many ways.
A person can ignore it. If everyone does ignore it, sooner or later it disappears. At that point, the person will have to do what is outlined in the OP if he wants the answer.
A person can answer it. Again, soon it too disappears, but the person got the answer, and maybe more than one person.
A person or people can reply with an attitude, which in the end serves only the person or people that didn't have to reply to begin with.
To me, it's all about control.
Let's use and example. Why do people shave legs. This can go one of many ways.
A person can ignore it. If everyone does ignore it, sooner or later it disappears. At that point, the person will have to do what is outlined in the OP if he wants the answer.
A person can answer it. Again, soon it too disappears, but the person got the answer, and maybe more than one person.
A person or people can reply with an attitude, which in the end serves only the person or people that didn't have to reply to begin with.
To me, it's all about control.
The reality is that things don't disappear. They are asked semi-regularly by different people. But that's only half the problem - someone will invariably give a response loaded with the frustration they are feeling after answering it more than once and the bickering and abuse begins. The search function is useless if the question is never answered or if someone needs to wade through pages of insider jokes and nonsense answers dripping with sarcasm.
To you, it's about self-control. We all have some amount of that, some more than others. But past history suggests that your approach doesn't work and this forum has a poor reputation, in part, because of that.
If you prefer to ignore the threads that exhibit this pattern, good on you. That makes you an above-average member of this community in that you're not part of the problem here. And there is nothing wrong with suggesting others do the same. I just wouldn't expect it.
04-28-09, 01:15 PM
#100
Chepooka
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Central PA
Posts: 1,179
Bikes: 1990 Trek 1400 7spd; 2001 Litespeed Arenberg 10 speed
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1110 Post(s)
Liked 1,090 Times
in
671 Posts
