.......sir

In today's economy? No. In better times? You darn well better believe they do. It wasn't that long ago that Toyota's Prius was selling for above MSRP.

I can't parse the meaning of that disclaimer, but even assuming it means what you claim it does, is similar text on BD's web site or in its ebay ads?

Except those reviewers are up-front about the fact that they are receiving demo models for review purposes. BD "reviewers" explicitly pretend to be regular consumers who have purchased the bikes and are offering unsolicited opinions. The name for this technique is "astroturfing" because it is a phony "grass roots" campaign.

Of course we've been through all this before in countless BD threads and this post will surely be followed by many other bogus analogies from people who fail to comprehend that the fundamental difference is dishonesty.

Really BD fans, it's nothing personal that some of us don't like the company you bought your bike from.

If you're using the music industry as a model of ethical behavior, you should submit your resume to Bernie Madoff's defense team. That kind of ehtical blindness is highly valuable.

I just looked up all four sites and you can tell it was the same person that slapped it together. And they must've not paid too much, because it literally looks like a site from the 90's. Very primitive. Of course, I guess it reflects the products. :lol: (sorry, that was below the belt).

I guess it depends. Of couse, it all depends on supply/demand. Honda Fit's are still selling very close to MSRP. But for the most part, yes, people do get impatient and want to be the first to own one in their town. I remember the first 2000 S2000's sold for $40k!! I waited a couple years and saved $12k. :innocent:

And that last comment by halfspeed in the above post makes BD seem like an infomercial than a bike store. Might as well have this guy sell for you.

http://kevinchristian.files.wordpres.../billymays.jpg

I could deal with the argument that it still makes sense to buy from BD in spite of the dishonesty. This could be a rational position.

What makes no sense at all is people suggesting that the dishonesty is some-how "right" (because other people do it?). This position is unquestionably irrational. Where did these people go to school?

With cars like the Fit, it really isn't a case of "it depends". With cars, the supply issues causing higher-than-MSRP prices correct themselves IF you wait long enough.

People are certainly free to pay too much, but it is, generally, pretty dopey! (It might be rational to pay more IF you happened to really need a car and could not wait. But most buyers can wait.)

I'm not in any way saying it's right, I'm saying it's business and some people get too upset over fairly inconsequential things way too easily.

Do you want their ads to say "yeah, this bike is cheap and not made to the highest standards, but buy it anyway!" No, they're going to say "this bike is great, especially for the price, and we're selling it cheaper than we could be, so it's a great deal!" because that's how business works in a capitalist system.

And just for the record, I'm a lobbyist, so I'm not far off from what you said I should be doing to begin with ;)

You left too soon,GM is still open.:D

If dishonesty is "just business", is there any level of dishonesty that is "too much"? (It would be harder to argue that there could be "too much" honesty.)

I have no idea how you measure "too upset" or the amount of "inconsequentiality". (I'm not personally upset by it. I'm just stating facts.)

Yes, that's exactly what I want!! And, you don't need to say "not made to the highest standard", because I know and expect that!

There is nothing wrong with "cheap" as long as the price matches value!

What I want is for ads to be honest (but I don't expect to get it).

It's also part of the "capitalist system" for people to point out dishonest business practices!

dont eff with DrPete...he's new and trying to do a good job...you have been warned

Saying "it's business" isn't a good excuse. Down that road lies apologias for outright fraud. In my experience, businesses that have the kind of allergy to the truth that BD has don't suddenly turn stand-up after the purchase.

What's so hard about saying that it's an "affordable entry-level alternative"?

I guess somebody needs to make personal injury attorneys feel good about themselves.

Bingo! That is a perfect marketing strategy.

I'm not a BD-lover by any means, but also not a hater.

I've been on the forums for at least 3 years now.

I have made MANY calls for legitimate references to unquestionably "shill" posts that BD has put up.

NOBODY has delivered. Somebody previously put up 5 links, and after reading thru them (they were quite entertaining, actually), it was obvious to me that on the 6th page of controversy on each post, the person was clearly not a shill - any "shill" would have ducked out long, long before that point.

It is entirely possible that there were some questionable practices prior to me coming onboard, but in terms of recent activity, I haven't seen a single post on that is convincingly pure BD-shill. In most cases, it's an excited person eager to post about their new bike that they are really excited about, and I'd probably feel the same way if I paid what they ask for their Ultegra bike lines and found that it was the real deal. (I ride a Cervelo, BTW.)

I did dig as far as 2+ years ago, and there were in fact some QC issues back then that while infrequent, did seem suspect, such as a big post on a BB being nonremovable on a higher-end bike, and some definitely subpar customer service. However, that BB issue seems to have been solved on the mid-hi level bikes (MANY breakdowns of the immortal pro and other similar bikes with no problems), and judging from their really good Ebay ratings (I think sprtymama was a seller), it seems customer satisfaction on the whole is extremely good now.

I'm making yet ANOTHER call out to point out some REAL BD-shady posts on the forums in the past 2 years. If it's really such a prevalent problem, there should be at least several convincing ones.

I do however, definitely think that this particular review of the Wellington is on the damning side for quality control, and I would not recommend anyone to buy it based upon the original fair review that the OP put up. (To also be fair, I wouldn't recommend ANYBODY to buy a similarly equipped $350 bike, even from an LBS, and expect QC in all the details.) The other bikes which are more expensive and have better components, particularly the Immortal and LeChampion have gotten particularly good reviews. The Kestrel bikes don't seem to be especially discounted over their LBS pricing as mentioned previously - if you want to score a true BD-deal, you have to go with their house brand.

Unfortunately, no.

Trying, huh? I see how it is. :D

Good one!!

All the F1 guys are scratching their heads.

The beauty of astroturfing is that it can't be "unquestionably" proven without some serious investigative work. What we do know is that BD Mike has admitted that some over-enthusiastic employees did some shilling on another forum. Again, given Mike's apparent basic inability to speak without gross exaggerations, I'm not convinced it was an isolated incident. We also know that a BF member claims to have been solicited to provide positive reviews and that numerous oddly similar "reviews" have been repeatedly posted under various n00bie IDs.

Draw your own conclusions... or not.

The head of BikesDirect is a member of Bike Forums and regularly posts in the SS/FG forum his ideas or prototypes for new SS/FG bikes. Answers all questions. Well received over there. Refuses to consider changing that 1995 inspired website. ;)

He might post over here if asked nicely. Could be interesting.

He did a while back, and some of his interactions with members on here convinced me to never shop at BD again.

If you F with DrPete he'll cut your nuts off, but with professional skill and a trained anesthesiologist in attendance.

and I'll post the footage on Youtube...with your address and phone number.

This is a hollow argument. How in the world could we absolutely positively one-hundred percently uncategorically prove it to be a shill? That's the whole point of the BD strategy. In general, you can't prove it.

We have shown you several REAL shady and convincing posts, you however choose not to believe they are REAL shady or convincing. In fact, there are even posts above and in other threads about Mike offering a discount to BF'ers for good reviews. There are also posts where people have been asked whether or not they were compensated in any way and the members do not reply to these questions. You are sticking your head in the sand and then telling us it's our job to pull it out.

How is your argument any different than me going into every BD thread and posting something that says, "I am stating once again that unless you can prove you are not a shill then you must be". And just like your query, this is something that can not be proven. That's why there are 100 threads about it a month.

Your argument is also similar to those who don't believe we put a man on the moon or that there was a holocaust or that evolution exists, etc., simply because you weren't there when it happened. It is not our job to PROVE anything to you. If you are incapable of noticing trends, similarities, etc., so be it.

Being an F1 guy... mind explaining that?

I agree......my pedals and one pair of socks cost more.

Let's see em. Easy enough for others to decide rather than all this "name-calling" and "sticking your head in the sand business". I've already said that the OP's review was fair and legitimately critical this time - I'm not the one with the objective bias problem here.

He said the bike was the Nascar model because it only went straight or turned left. That's pretty much all Nascar cars do as most of their tracks are ovals. At Talladega the cars can go pretty much full out all the way around the track.

F1 cars actually turn left, right, go straight, slow way down, accelerate, etc.