botto 

this is what my LBS uses.

Psimet2001 

1. Currently DT

2. Yes.

3.... email psimet at psimet dot com

jasonkang85

PSIMET a Purdue Grad? Cheers!

Erik B

He's easy to work with, quick on the turn around, will or would work with whatever product line the customer wants and seems to build a very nice wheel.

I don't have 20,000 miles on his build yet but I've had no issues with it to this point. It arrived round and true and still is.

RichinPeoria

oh never mind

urbanknight

That's exactly what I was saying. They broke because the builder was inept.


Makes perfect sense, but...

1) I would expect to hear from at least a few problems because I guarantee my wheels to stay in true for at least a full year, no matter the mileage, and true and tension them for free if they don't. OK, so maybe they don't care if it's free and would consider me incompetent and go elsewhere, I'd expect at least a few to at least approach me for this if I had done a poor job. Most people I know would take any item back at least once to see if they can make it right, especially at no cost to them.

2) Many of my customers had long standing relationships with me and I saw my wheels under them every Saturday night at the velodrome for years, or rode along side the person week after week on the road, and many of them (the heavier riders, mostly) thank my every time they see me for building a pair of wheels that they finally don't have to get trued every month or break a spoke every season. Sure, more than half of the wheels I built never saw me again, but I just ran out of fingers counting the people I stayed in contact with for over 3 years. Of course, 3 of them are family members who still ride my wheels, and one is myself.

Like you said though, it's not hard to build a good pair of wheels. It's just that shops are worried about labor time instead of being thorough, and other builders are lazy and just true the wheel without regard to the tension.

robncircus

i have a set. Alchamey front on Kinlin 300 and White Industries rear on Kinlin 300. Great wheels, well built, and Psimet is a pleasure to deal with. Would buy again

aham23

who the heck is the Psimet that is such a pleasure to deal with?

my dealings with Psimet go like this:

Psimet, sweaty and mad; "give me the mutha f'ing keys you mutha f'ing muther f'ers."

besides that he did build me a sweet set of hoops. later.

Psimet2001 

....consider the context....

aham23

always.

seems i may have killed this 10 page destined thread. back on topic.

raise your hand if you love you some Psimet .

later.

Fat Boy

He sold me a couple chains. Now I can sprint 48 mph uphill into a hurricane.

Mr. Beanz

How many have you had to true/retension within that one year?


OK, now don't go change your previous answer!...Heavy riders? Their needs are different than lighter riders. Even on a good build, the shop pros SWORE up and down that the wheels would not go out of true. But I found as a heavier rider, in my case, after an initial breakin period, maybe 200 miles, the spokes needed to be retensioned. Loctite, spoke prep, magic fairy dust, didn't matter, the wheel neded to be trued and retensioned after that period. Lighter guys, I dunno, I have no experience riding at 125 lbs

If the wheel was not retensioned, the spokes BREAK! After I realized this, I started retensioning and have not had a problem since. That's why I tell all the clydes (forum) to have the wheel retensioned after the initail period. Plus I do it on all our wheels now, 5 that I've built and 16 currently in use on our 8 bikes.....So depending on your first honest answer, have you NEVER had to retension a wheel for a big heavy powerful track sprinter?......IF not, that is totally amazing as I'm a heavy rider but not as powerful since I'm just a recreational rider dude! But this seems to be the difference in a wheel lasting 2,000 or 20,000 miles.



True! I'd have to say that half the reason I build my own is relying on some dude that shows up to work on my wheel when he feels like it. I've taken my business to local builders after high regards from other riders. Dropped off the wheel and parts, then told to come back in one week, pick up after 5 pm. I show up and the dude is strolling in, "oh yeah, I forgot about it, I'll build it right now" WTF!...Must I continue to say the *** fell apart!..Dude is an excellent builder, everybody knows it but it's a gamble dealing with him

--------------------------------------------
Sounds like Psimet has his act together with his bidniss! It was just a little debate about the trailing spokes. Good points both sides IMO!

urbanknight

Honest answer: 1 person. It was the fourth set of wheels I had built, and I had forgotten to stress relieve the spokes. The rider was 150 lb and had actually gone 14 months without a problem. The wheels weren't actually out of true, even, but he had noticed that the tension had dropped a little. I retensioned and stress relieved, and he went on his merry way.


I agree that heavier riders have different needs, but those needs are usually more spokes and/or deeper rims. Beyond that, there are two key factors in building that wheel right the first time. 1, Being careful when you bend the spoke elbows. If you don't bend them yourself, they will bend later on after riding has pulled them into the needed angle and seated the heads. 2, stress relieving the spokes. This is easier with cone bearings as you can place the axle on the ground and push down hard on opposing parts of the rim multiple times. Since I've heard this can damage cartridge bearings, those have to be done by hand and if my hands don't get angry red indents from the spokes, I'm not doing it right. Since the hand is not very effective, I can see why this might cause wheels to go slack and need a retension and retrue after a short period of time (really, this should be evident in the first 100 miles), but this can usually be avoided by no letting the spokes wind up, and making sure the heads are seated and the elbows are bent at the right angle.


So my honest answer was 1 person, but not a powerful and heavy track sprinter. Thinking back, all of those were cone bearings, and I made sure to put my weight into it when stress relieving. Be amazed if you will, but it's not magic.


As much as I'd love to think I'm making a fortune on building wheels, it's really just a hobby for me and between the rates I charge and the time I take making sure I do it right, I'm getting less than minimum wage. I used to be jealous when I heard builders say they take 30 min to build a PAIR, but now I realize it doesn't matter how long it takes me. I spend about an hour on each wheel, because I make small adjustments and then check tension on every spoke before continuing. I find that important because adjusting the tension on just a few spokes can affect the tension on all the others, rendering the previous reading invalid.


If it makes you feel any better, I am now resolved to build all of my rear wheels with the trailing spokes on the inside unless they request otherwise... simply because you feel so strongly about it. I have no convictions about either way, but I have yet to hear from anyone who insists on having them on the outside, so I don't see why anyone would complain if I do it your way.

Geez, I started typing that shortly after class got out at 2:39. I really need to finish my paperwork and get home to the wifey!

Mr. Beanz

I honestly don't think 99% of riders would know one way or another,....unless they read this thread!

As far as stress relief, I've done everything Sheldon rec's, using a crankarm to bend the spokes, squeezing the spokes together, placing the hub on the ground. But still, even the wheels the pros built, they all lose some tension. But again, that's under my weight as a large big boned-ed rider.

Geeze my fingertips hurt for 2 days after a build!

After having wheels serviced at the shops, (free tune-ups, which by the way suck most of the time) my wheels are blessed with that nasty tick and click sound. I've found this to be from the mechanic truing the wheels and not making sure that the spokes don't bind. Shop mechanics ar NOT wheel builders.

SO when I build or even just true a wheel, I place a black dot on the spoke near the nips. When I turn the nipples, I verify that the spoke doesn't bind or go along for the ride!

RichinPeoria

If you use bladed spokes wind-up is easy to see.

Mr. Beanz

True!^^^

urbanknight

Agreed. It's the <1% (i.e. YOU ) that carry the vote completely.


Bingo! When I was a shop wrench, the head mechanic - who could fix almost anything, and he could do it faster and better than me - couldn't build or true wheels.


A great idea.

As for the bladed spokes, that's true, but at a weight penalty and (arguably) an aero penalty in real world applications as well.

ls01

Hey beanz, I too am.... big boned.. and have had my share of wheel troubles. I, like you have had to learn to build my own wheels out of frustration. I now use straight gage spokes on all my rear wheel builds, well, the ones that are for me anyways. I had a couple of wheels that would need to be retensioned after 150 - 200 miles. they were so bad that I could make the brakes rub durring a sprint, or short climb. I do the marker thing to, and I even take it one step further. after I am done building the wheel I mark one of the corners of the nipple and put a line up the spoke. Now after a couple of hundred miles I can visually check the nips to see if they have mooved. When I used to build with butted spokes and did this I would show nipple moovement after about 75 miles.
I guess the theory is that with heavyr riders the spokes under load stretch and allow the unloaded spokes to rattle in thier holes which eventually leads to a loose spoke. rebuilt with straight 14 gage spokes, man is that a stiff wheel.

and psimet = simet? he will always be piz met to me, dislexics untie!

Mr. Beanz

That's what I'm talkin' about!...Nice move with the spoke line too, I'll have to try that.

aham23

psimet delievers, again. now, can i? later.

chipcom 

psimet is like a god to me. I had never ridden a bike before in my life until one morning I was minding my own business and met him.
He touched my hand...I think humans call it a handshake, and my life was changed. As he rode off into the sunrise, a bike appeared next to me, beckoning. I jumped on that bike and followed that god-like man for 160 miles. I never caught him, but I was automagically transformed that day. I was now a...




FRED.

Psimet2001 

I told you to hop on as we rode by.....just sayin...

Banzai

Trailing spokes on the inside of the flange (heads out) gives the spokes that are most transferring torque a lower approach angle at the rim and the flange. This reduces the out-of-vertical forces exerted on those components when under torque.

Only to a minor degree though. In practical application, it doesn't matter that much.

FWIW, on my disc brake wheels, I lace the rear with the trailing spokes inside the flange (heads out) and opposite on the front, since the torque applied up front is, well, opposite.

patentcad

Tank you.

RichinPeoria

your chain stay is cracked on that thing too