[/LIST]I'm amazed that anyone that even casually follows cycling could be that naive.

1. Riis
2. Pantani
3. Di Luca
4. Millar
5. Heras
6. Hondo
7. Basso
8. Gonzalez
9. Landis
10. Hamilton
11. Ullrich
12. Vinokourov
13. Pettachi
14. Mayo
15. Schumaker
16. Kohl
17. Piepoli
18. Rasmussen
19. Ricco
20. Valverde

Just a recent sample of proven or admitted dopers that won Grand Tours, rode high on GC, won stages of Grand Tours, and/or jersey winners at Grand Tours.

Hey, watch it.

I've got a prescription from the Anti aging clinic for the testosterone,and the HGH. Haven't you heard of low T?

nah - what they should just do is have two awards. If you win but fail *any* test your winnings are 10% of what they would be and they get moved down the list from you to the next guy who didnt get caught. That way incentive is to place high in the rankings but dope less.

Any other ideas?

Brilliant!

Who'll be my role-model
Now that my role-model is
Gone Gone


The rest is just sad.

Impose serious sanctions against the Team Owners and the director sportif's. No way systemativ doping goes on without at least their tacit approval.

As it is now, they just throw the "rogue" rider under the bus and move on. Serious penalities for the powers that be would at least put a significant dent in doping.

That's the first thing I thought too.

good point - it needs to hit the deep pockets for change to occur. Not the riders.

Of course.

If you want to know where to go around here, I can tell you...

(no, I haven't been, and don't have a prescription)

And I was being facetious.

I do know someone though that doesn't race but is using testosterone. From all reports its not hard to get.

Or old-school glass IV bottles

As I understand it, the plasticizers break down in the digestive process. If they show up in the urine, they can't have been ingested, they would have to have been in the bloodstream directly.

HOWEVER, you would end up with plasticizers in your blood stream from any IV bag use. Is getting plasma (say, to combat dehydration) illegal?

Noble idea but won't you just chase the sponsors from the sport ?

It is getting to the point where it's astonishing any major corporation is still willing to be involved in this sport.

I have low T, and could probably get a prescription easily. A guy in our club was on it for another condition. Didn't help his cycling though, probably because the dose & timing were not cycling based.

Well, as if everybody knows what I'm talking about
As if everybody would know exactly what I was talking about.

One, there's a distinction between the sponsors, and management/ ownership; i.e. Tailwind Sports owns Radioshack. So conceivably you can punish Bruyneel, and the Tailwind Owners, while leaving Radio Shack free to sponsor their successors. (and just using RadioShack, Bruyneel and Tailwind as an illustration, not making an allegation)

Two, to the extent it would drive away sponsors, it becomes the ultimate hammer; real consequences to the people in control that could actually alter behavior.

Understood, but I think the response by the manager/owners has just been to have the best (read - undetectable) doping programs possible....
If your a sponsor why would you support a clean but uncompetitive pro level team year after year ?

I continue to remain clean. Meanwhile, I now assume that everyone who is faster than me is now cheating.

The idea is that a potential sponsor would want to choose a team they thought was clean so that they don't lose their investment if the whole team gets caught cheating.

But that's exactly my point. The manager/owners can support the best doping program they can afford. Some do it actively. Others do it at least tacitly.

They do it because there is little consequence to getting caught. You simply say, "we're shocked that Rider X tested positive, it's against everything we stand for", you kick him to the curb, and go on doping.

Conversely, if other teams are doping there's strong incentive to allow a doping program because Sponsors don't want a noncompetitive team.

So all the incentives line up for DS's to encourage or allow doping.

If you want to fix the problem you have to change those incentives.

+1...This has always been my contention

Maybe a 2 year ban isn't harsh enough.

I can take that rationalization a step further Gomer. The way I see it, since everyone is naturally (and unfairly) faster than me, my own use of EPO would only serve to level the playing field somewhat.

fify