Which Helmet
10-12-04, 07:53 PM
#51
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BORING!
Turn off the TV when you finally come to bed.
I thought this thread was about which helmet someone should choose. It's turned into a battle of the statisticians.
PJ
Turn off the TV when you finally come to bed.
I thought this thread was about which helmet someone should choose. It's turned into a battle of the statisticians.
PJ
10-12-04, 07:54 PM
#52
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Okay, let me start by saying that I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from wearing a helmet. If you want to wear one, then by all means I encourage you to. I wear one, I wouldn't go for a long ride without it ... it makes me feel safer and hence probably makes me a better cyclist.
However, this is a personal choice and I recognize that it may or may not have any basis in fact. Again, I'm not suggesting that people who wear helmets should stop, but I think that people who believe that helmets are as effective as seat belts (for example) are mistaken. There are a bunch of reasons why I think this, and many of them are summed up quite eloquently in an article by Ken Kifer (btw, Ken was an excellent advocate for bicyclists and tragically was recently killed by a drunk driver, you can read more about him and his life in this thread and on his website).
A couple of thoughts to add to the above ... I looked at the link from Snell, and none of it really supported the notion that helmets work or are necessary. Also, it seems like someone always jumps into these threads and says "Ah yes, but it's just common sense that [whatever]." Well, as one of my favorite sayings goes ... "Any fool can look out his window and see that the world is flat."
John
PS - I do hope that the original poster got enough info on what kind of helmet to buy ... I wear a Giant, it came free with my last bike.
However, this is a personal choice and I recognize that it may or may not have any basis in fact. Again, I'm not suggesting that people who wear helmets should stop, but I think that people who believe that helmets are as effective as seat belts (for example) are mistaken. There are a bunch of reasons why I think this, and many of them are summed up quite eloquently in an article by Ken Kifer (btw, Ken was an excellent advocate for bicyclists and tragically was recently killed by a drunk driver, you can read more about him and his life in this thread and on his website).
A couple of thoughts to add to the above ... I looked at the link from Snell, and none of it really supported the notion that helmets work or are necessary. Also, it seems like someone always jumps into these threads and says "Ah yes, but it's just common sense that [whatever]." Well, as one of my favorite sayings goes ... "Any fool can look out his window and see that the world is flat."
John
PS - I do hope that the original poster got enough info on what kind of helmet to buy ... I wear a Giant, it came free with my last bike.
10-12-04, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Maj.Taylor
As I said, it's a personal call.
10-12-04, 08:33 PM
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Because...it's unusual that cyclists have heard of him, much less, know anything about him. The Metro Detroit Cycling Club honors him on our jerseys and website. Just curious as to your reasons.
We like to hook up with other cyclists who know.
We like to hook up with other cyclists who know.
10-13-04, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Laguna
Major Taylor. I'm curious. Bush-Whacked, USA? Texas?
And not to start this again, but those Snell statistics very much support my position, just as John5211 tends to feel. And also, the study was sponsored by the helmet industry. That, too, was one of my points. (Remember studies sponsored by tobacco companies? Those determined tobacco didn't cause cancer.) But before we start again, please wear or not, whatever or not, you wish. Deal?
(BTW, I wonder if Bush had a helmet on when he fell off his bike. If not, I'll start wearing one tomorrow. I certainly wouldn't want to end up like that!
)
10-13-04, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Maj.Taylor
(BTW, I wonder if Bush had a helmet on when he fell off his bike. If not, I'll start wearing one tomorrow. I certainly wouldn't want to end up like that! )
)
10-15-04, 01:15 PM
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I wear a bell nemesis. First one cracked in 2 places when I crashed. I replaced it with the same and never ride without it. This helmet is comfortable to me.
Thank you for the Stats on dying when in a crash. This happened today in Beaumont, Texas.
The Texas Department of Public Safety is investigating an accident that killed a woman riding a bicycle in Bevil Oaks.
The D.P.S. says 54 year old Kathy Grantham of Beaumont was riding a bicycle on the shoulder of State Highway 105 in Bevil Oaks at about 9:30 a.m. Friday, when a car collided with the bike.
Justice of the Peace Vi McGinnis says Grantham was thrown from the bicycle. The J.P. pronounced Grantham dead at the scene.
Judge McGinnis says Grantham was wearing a helmet.
The DPS says no charges will be filed and no ticket issued.
May she rest in peace.
Thank you for the Stats on dying when in a crash. This happened today in Beaumont, Texas.
The Texas Department of Public Safety is investigating an accident that killed a woman riding a bicycle in Bevil Oaks.
The D.P.S. says 54 year old Kathy Grantham of Beaumont was riding a bicycle on the shoulder of State Highway 105 in Bevil Oaks at about 9:30 a.m. Friday, when a car collided with the bike.
Justice of the Peace Vi McGinnis says Grantham was thrown from the bicycle. The J.P. pronounced Grantham dead at the scene.
Judge McGinnis says Grantham was wearing a helmet.
The DPS says no charges will be filed and no ticket issued.
May she rest in peace.
10-15-04, 03:23 PM
#59
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Alright Major, lets say for example, the statistics say that it is most likely you will never crash in your lifetime... The odds are 1:1,000,000. If you are in fact involved in a crash, wouldn't you want to be wearing a helmet?
10-15-04, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by skyelo
Alright Major, lets say for example, the statistics say that it is most likely you will never crash in your lifetime... The odds are 1:1,000,000. If you are in fact involved in a crash, wouldn't you want to be wearing a helmet?
11-09-04, 12:35 AM
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I'm "waking up" an old thread, and Raiyn is gonna be grumpy about it (*smiles at Raiyn*) but I'm glad I found this thread. I just got through reading the article that John5211 mentions (https://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/advocacy/mhls.htm) and started thinking about it.
Anyone who is thinking about buying a helmet should at least read that article and make up their own minds about it. I bought my bike (https://www.llantup.com/schwinn-sierra-700.html) in June of 2000, and my friends all started hounding me to get and wear a helmet. I have done so unquestioningly since then... now I'm thinking. Thinking is good, especially when one has good data on which to make a decision.
Anyone who is thinking about buying a helmet should at least read that article and make up their own minds about it. I bought my bike (https://www.llantup.com/schwinn-sierra-700.html) in June of 2000, and my friends all started hounding me to get and wear a helmet. I have done so unquestioningly since then... now I'm thinking. Thinking is good, especially when one has good data on which to make a decision.
11-09-04, 01:47 AM
#62
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What's to think about? That link was a lot of moaning and groaning about nothing. A helmet is such a
trivial and obvious precaution to take. The hand-wringing "worry" that helmet use will drive people away
from cycling is ultra-silly, as are the nitpicking "arguements" that somehow we shouldn't cycle with helmets
because statistically walking is more dangerous, or that the design isn't perfect, etc. The ridiculous
paragraph whining about how it was somehow "disturbing" that children should be required to wear
helmets instead of being allowed "free choice" is enough to discredit the whole page on its own.
Get a helmet. They're just $20. Wear it. Easy. Most likely you'll never need it, but so what? "Thinking" about
this triviality will just cause indecision. If you don't wear a helmet...good luck, Machoismo-Man.
trivial and obvious precaution to take. The hand-wringing "worry" that helmet use will drive people away
from cycling is ultra-silly, as are the nitpicking "arguements" that somehow we shouldn't cycle with helmets
because statistically walking is more dangerous, or that the design isn't perfect, etc. The ridiculous
paragraph whining about how it was somehow "disturbing" that children should be required to wear
helmets instead of being allowed "free choice" is enough to discredit the whole page on its own.
Get a helmet. They're just $20. Wear it. Easy. Most likely you'll never need it, but so what? "Thinking" about
this triviality will just cause indecision. If you don't wear a helmet...good luck, Machoismo-Man.
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11-09-04, 02:16 AM
#63
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Well, that's one opinion.
Frankly, *my* point is that rather than doing something "just because", we have the ability and maybe even the responsibility to look at the evidence and choose for ourselves.
Oh, and that's Ms. Machoismo-Babe to you.
Frankly, *my* point is that rather than doing something "just because", we have the ability and maybe even the responsibility to look at the evidence and choose for ourselves.
Oh, and that's Ms. Machoismo-Babe to you.
11-09-04, 02:27 AM
#64
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Why play around with statistics and senarios when it's so easy and cheap to just wear the hat?
If you ever don't need it you'll instinctively know.
If you ever don't need it you'll instinctively know.
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11-09-04, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Maj.Taylor
I wear a $25 cheapo--the rare times I wear one at all. It looks good enough and is properly certified. And yes, you read that correctly. I virtually never wear a helmet. How about some statistics on accidental causes of deaths? (BTW, I'm a Ph.D.-level statistician and marketing researcher.)
Accidental Cause....................1-Year Odds of Dying*
Cycling ...............................1 in 359,967
Pedestrian.............................1 in 46,960
Fall from stairs or steps..............1 in 195,003
Firearms discharge.....................1 in 355,479
From any force of nature...............1 in 259,176
Car occupant...........................1 in 19,075
What does that tell you? It says you should always wear Kevlar body armor in addition to riding Kevlar-lined tyres, given you have a greater chance of dying from a gunshot wound than cycling. Do you? It tells you to never walk, or cross a street. That's approximately 8 times more dangerous than cycling. Put that helmet on before you even leave the house to walk a few blocks! It tells you that Mother Nature is more out to get you than riding without a helmet. Better put a lightning rod on that helmet while you're at it. Certainly put a helmet on before walking up or down stairs! And, you definitely need a helmet, stock car protection, and restraint devices should you drive.
People do things all the time that are far more dangerous than riding a bike, but never give them a thought--or take additional safety precautions. Given there are so many more common ways I could easily die than riding my bike, I'll take my chances without the helmet. (Oh, and the cycling statistics do not take into account a rider's proficiency or experience. The majority of those deaths are kids, not serious adult cyclists. And no, the cycling odds are not lower because of all the helmets being worn. I've controlled for that. In fact, in my county there has been nonly 1 cycling-related death in the past 5 years.)
Yes, the helmet industry has done a magnificent job of marketing and exaggerating the dangers of riding without a helmet. You've been had. Caveat emptor.
*National Safety Council Data (2001)
Accidental Cause....................1-Year Odds of Dying*
Cycling ...............................1 in 359,967
Pedestrian.............................1 in 46,960
Fall from stairs or steps..............1 in 195,003
Firearms discharge.....................1 in 355,479
From any force of nature...............1 in 259,176
Car occupant...........................1 in 19,075
What does that tell you? It says you should always wear Kevlar body armor in addition to riding Kevlar-lined tyres, given you have a greater chance of dying from a gunshot wound than cycling. Do you? It tells you to never walk, or cross a street. That's approximately 8 times more dangerous than cycling. Put that helmet on before you even leave the house to walk a few blocks! It tells you that Mother Nature is more out to get you than riding without a helmet. Better put a lightning rod on that helmet while you're at it. Certainly put a helmet on before walking up or down stairs! And, you definitely need a helmet, stock car protection, and restraint devices should you drive.
People do things all the time that are far more dangerous than riding a bike, but never give them a thought--or take additional safety precautions. Given there are so many more common ways I could easily die than riding my bike, I'll take my chances without the helmet. (Oh, and the cycling statistics do not take into account a rider's proficiency or experience. The majority of those deaths are kids, not serious adult cyclists. And no, the cycling odds are not lower because of all the helmets being worn. I've controlled for that. In fact, in my county there has been nonly 1 cycling-related death in the past 5 years.)
Yes, the helmet industry has done a magnificent job of marketing and exaggerating the dangers of riding without a helmet. You've been had. Caveat emptor.
*National Safety Council Data (2001)
What were you saying in that other thread? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
11-09-04, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Becca
I'm "waking up" an old thread, and Raiyn is gonna be grumpy about it (*smiles at Raiyn*) but I'm glad I found this thread. I just got through reading the article that John5211 mentions (https://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/advocacy/mhls.htm) and started thinking about it.
11-09-04, 08:04 AM
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If there is a chance that wearing one may prevent you from cracking your skull if you have an accident, then I dont see why you wouldnt wear one.
There are too many dangerous drivers, as-holes in suv's and still plenty of people using mobile phones while driving (Its illegel to do so here. But I always see at least one when I'm on my bike) to not be wearing one.
There are too many dangerous drivers, as-holes in suv's and still plenty of people using mobile phones while driving (Its illegel to do so here. But I always see at least one when I'm on my bike) to not be wearing one.
11-09-04, 08:30 AM
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Where's the study that'll show me I'm more likely to end up with serious head injuries by wearing a bicycle helmet vs. not wearing one?!?
HAR HAR.
HAR HAR.
11-09-04, 02:58 PM
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Who cares about F**KING statistics.
Here are your choices:
1. Wear a helmet
2. Dont wear a helmet
It is that simple. Why must everyone ramble on and on about mindless crap. Do what you want. I wear one, period.
Here are your choices:
1. Wear a helmet
2. Dont wear a helmet
It is that simple. Why must everyone ramble on and on about mindless crap. Do what you want. I wear one, period.
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I'm 148 lbs of legs and lungs.
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11-09-04, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Scoz
If there is a chance that wearing one may prevent you from cracking your skull if you have an accident, then I dont see why you wouldnt wear one.
There are too many dangerous drivers, as-holes in suv's and still plenty of people using mobile phones while driving (Its illegel to do so here. But I always see at least one when I'm on my bike) to not be wearing one.
There are too many dangerous drivers, as-holes in suv's and still plenty of people using mobile phones while driving (Its illegel to do so here. But I always see at least one when I'm on my bike) to not be wearing one.
Bear in mind that if you or I are hit by a car, we can suffer greater damage to our internal organs, bones, and such than to our heads - and be killed before we even hit the ground. Go take a look at https://www.davidreviews.com/playmovie.asp?ID=2004031304 which is about a motorcyclist being killed, but makes my point.
11-09-04, 03:31 PM
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damn, i just spent ages writing a long argument...then my browser crashed out...
basically, dont we need stats for deaths from cyclists wearing helmets vs those without? Assuming most deaths occur due to head injuries, and that helmets help prevent this(the snell data seems to agree with this), the vast majority of deaths will occur in non-helmet riders. The death statistic originally posted looks like an average for all cyclists which is false.
The reason that statistic was so low was that most cyclists do wear helmets and therefore dont die, and correspondingly, the risk of riding without a helmet must be huge!
But i aint no statistician...correct me if im wrong
bart
basically, dont we need stats for deaths from cyclists wearing helmets vs those without? Assuming most deaths occur due to head injuries, and that helmets help prevent this(the snell data seems to agree with this), the vast majority of deaths will occur in non-helmet riders. The death statistic originally posted looks like an average for all cyclists which is false.
The reason that statistic was so low was that most cyclists do wear helmets and therefore dont die, and correspondingly, the risk of riding without a helmet must be huge!
But i aint no statistician...correct me if im wrong
bart
11-09-04, 03:47 PM
#72
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This is completely idiotic, a safety device is available. Whether or not you'll have the chance of using it is almost completely irrelevant.
Using your statistics you can singlehandedly strike down the need for all devices made in the name of safety.
Using your statistics you can singlehandedly strike down the need for all devices made in the name of safety.
11-09-04, 03:58 PM
#73
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Surely this debate has nothing to do with statistics. The debate is not whether you will die or not if you don't wear a helmet, or whether you will more likely die whilst crossing the road.
Like all decisions, I way up the pros and cons:
For me the advantages are simple: An increase in safety (the degree of this increase and the likelihood of me ever needing it etc only affect how much I weigh this advantage - they do not remove the advantage totally)
Personally, the disadvantages are a slightly hotter head whilst riding, I might think I look like an idiot and it gives my self-esteem a knock, and it costs me $50 to buy the helmet.
For me, none of those disadvantages are very big issues and therefore it makes sense to wear the helmet.
For other people, those disadvantages may weight terribly on them. There may be other disadvantages, that they can think of and that I cannot, that affect them. They may weigh the advantage as being insignificant (statistics etc) This could lead to the disadvantages outweighing the advantages. It therefore makes sense for that individual not to wear the helmet.
The thing that interests me is to know what the cons of wearing a helmet are for people who decide that these outweigh the pros. An answer of "it doesn't do anything - statistics show they don't help" doesn't do it for me, because so far all the statistics quoted have told me is that you may be very unlikely to need a helmet and you may get injured more easily walking the dog. They haven't actually told me any of the reasons for NOT wearing a helmet.
Like all decisions, I way up the pros and cons:
For me the advantages are simple: An increase in safety (the degree of this increase and the likelihood of me ever needing it etc only affect how much I weigh this advantage - they do not remove the advantage totally)
Personally, the disadvantages are a slightly hotter head whilst riding, I might think I look like an idiot and it gives my self-esteem a knock, and it costs me $50 to buy the helmet.
For me, none of those disadvantages are very big issues and therefore it makes sense to wear the helmet.
For other people, those disadvantages may weight terribly on them. There may be other disadvantages, that they can think of and that I cannot, that affect them. They may weigh the advantage as being insignificant (statistics etc) This could lead to the disadvantages outweighing the advantages. It therefore makes sense for that individual not to wear the helmet.
The thing that interests me is to know what the cons of wearing a helmet are for people who decide that these outweigh the pros. An answer of "it doesn't do anything - statistics show they don't help" doesn't do it for me, because so far all the statistics quoted have told me is that you may be very unlikely to need a helmet and you may get injured more easily walking the dog. They haven't actually told me any of the reasons for NOT wearing a helmet.
11-09-04, 07:17 PM
#74
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Originally Posted by operator
Using your statistics you can singlehandedly strike down the need for all devices made in the name of safety.
Let's cease the arguing--since it's impossible for only facts (i.e., empirical data) to be considered by all. Again, each person is free to do as they wish. No one needs to preach to others regarding entirely personal decisions. You wear yours; I'll not wear mine. I'll keep my knowledge of probability and statistics sharp; you do as you wish and make your decisions on whatever information you wish. Deal?
11-09-04, 07:35 PM
#75
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Originally Posted by GingerPrince
An answer of "it doesn't do anything - statistics show they don't help" doesn't do it for me, because so far all the statistics quoted have told me is that you may be very unlikely to need a helmet and you may get injured more easily walking the dog. They haven't actually told me any of the reasons for NOT wearing a helmet.
But again, wear or don't wear a helmet in accordance with your preferences. Leave others to their preferences. I will not consider you stupid if you do wear a helmet. Please do not consider me stupid if I do not. Now, let's all go out for a pleasant bike ride, shall we?