Be more specific on which model of Bontrager wheels. I have worked on a few Race X Lites and was not impressed. One of them was with a 150lb rider, but the wheels still came out of true only a year after he bought them and had very uneven tension and hairline cracks at the holes. The other rider was 250lb and had previously broken and fixed the wheels so many times, I found wrong length spokes and various gauge spokes and nipple lengths with a rim that was so warped, I refused to charge the guy for my work and told him they were a time bomb.

Now that you said it, I don't have to.

I will double that sentiment.

(I build a few wheels from time to time as well)

Of course there are general rules. Wheel building isn't rocket science, it's more of a craftsman + specific knowledge kind of thing. A wheel builder will ask a customer questions about riding style, weight, terrain, and budget and translate that into a set of wheels. The information can be organized in a matrix. Psimet appears to make part of his living doing this so maybe he's reluctant to share his knowledge, but his customers are unlikely to be do-it-yerselfers who'd rather buy from someone. I've built a number of "sturdy" wheelsets but am interested in testing the limits for a lower weight set, thus my question.

I'd also like to hear why butted spokes are more durable than straight gauge. I've switched to straight gauge for the last few sets to save money and haven't had a single break.

They have the same thickness as straight guage spokes where it matters and they're more elastic in the long center section so they handle stresses better. See Jobs Brandt's "The Bicycle Wheel" for a more detailed explanation. Or you can just google. There are lots of resources on this.

My point is that this "matrix" would be huge because of the number of possible combinations. Of course, Psimet or any other reputable wheel builder could spend numerous hours coming up with such a database, but even if they did, it would be widely scrutinized by others because it's all just theory and personal experience.

Back when they had pretty much only box rims and straight gauge spokes, I actually had a general rule. I think it was something like 36 spokes for people over 220, 32 for 180-220, 28 for 120-180, and 24 for under 120. Even that had a catch, though, where I subtracted 20 lb for super light rims. Of course, this was also possibly a little conservative, as I didn't want someone coming back to me with a collapsed wheel and a JRA story. Anyway, when they started making deep section rims and various types of materials and construction, my general rule went out the window.

So sure, you could make a general rule, but it would be pages long and all based on personal opinion. I think this is why builders prefer to consult with individual people than try to publish some sort of list.

Thank you for responding. My wheel set is Bontrager Race Lite Clinchers. As a side not though keep in mind I am a fairly new rider and an older person. I don't expect to be going that fast or hard. 17 mph area.

Yeah, this is what a lot of people say, but there's a lot of anecdotes out there from experienced people that indicate straight gauge works fine too. Wheels are systems with a number of components/variables. Maybe, as a practical matter, it's more of a wive's tale. Find data please, preferably field data.

People, and even experts, can't handle real complexity. As a practical matter with fashion/bling aside, each wheel builder probably has a limited number of designs that he knows will work reliably for particular applications (maybe < 20) to accommodate a limited number of customer requirements (maybe half a dozen). The details "all based on personal opinion" will vary between builders, but generically the designs will have a lot of overlap.

1. In order for me to sponsor you - you actually have to RIDE a bike instead of just volunteering, running events, supporting your club and team, showing up at every race, cheering for everyone, heckling the hecklers, and always handing me a beer.
2. I didn't steal your team.....If I did you still ended up with the big guns that I can't afford.
3. I would never mess anyone's wheels up intentionally. Even yours. Although it WOULD be tempting.

Sorry for the "fire and forget" yesterday but that was indeed the answer. People need to take a step back and think about this industry. Why do people buy what they buy? When it comes to wheels what draws in 99% of the market to buy wheels? It isn't durable, purpose built wheels designed for the application. Why? because they are too heavy and the first thing that a shopper looks at after having a wheelset draw their attention by looks? Weight.

Now ask yourself - will that blingy low spoke count uber wheel designed to perform at the limits of it's ability under a 140# Pro racer perform just as well under a 280# club rider? No. It's like taking a bridge and then putting 4 times the traffic it was designed for on it.

If they worked well wouldn't they be on the most popular and best selling bikes out there? I mean of course family hybrid and city bikes. I mean they have fewer spokes/components and are lighter using less raw material - they require less machine time and labor to produce.....so why aren't they? Because they would suck at that task.

I build conservatively. Why? Because I can and it works. If I had a $ for every 190# cyclist who has come to me and said, "Yeah, but conventional wisdom says I can run 20/24 not 24/28" then I could retire and stop selling wheels. I have never seen anyone lose a race because they had too many spokes. I have seen people drop out because they busted a spoke. My favorite is when someone says, "but company xyz recommends 20/24 out to 210#'s." Yup - but they also use aluminum nipples which are pretty much assured to fail through normal use....so...we know where they are coming from.

So why doesn't everyone ride 32 or 36 spoke wheels? Weight and looks. Aerodynamics too. So understand the hand off, know consciously what choice you are making and live with the results. "Hey I just busted a spoke!!!" "you're 300# and riding a 20 spoke rear" "Yeah....so? The internet told me that was fine." So why were you riding the 20 spoke rear, "Because I liked it" "Cool but now you have to deal with a broken spoke. Just keep that in mind."

For anyone over about 215 I start moving into my "real" builds. FWIW - some of my high end hub manufacturers cringe whenever I say I am putting a 250#rider on hub xyz. They always say something along the lines of "that doesn't make me feel very comfortable. They will probably have problems."

There are options out there. They aren't glorious. They aren't blingy but they work. They aren't really advertized but are in catalogs - wholesale catalogs. They are on the manufacturer's sites.

Understand that these recommendations are for what I consider to be the "middle range" - too heavy for "high performance" wheels but "too light" for "industrial wheels"

As far as rims - DT, Velocity and Sun Ringle, H+ Sons
Hubs - White, Chris King, DT, Shimano, Campy, Phil Wood
Spokes - DT Comps, Wheelsmith (part of Hayes with Sun now) DB14
Nipples - brass. duh.
If you're in this range you should be starting at 32 spoke.

I appriciate all the feedback and discussion. This has helped me imensly. I plan to buy a different bike at this time and pass on the R4000si.

My plan is to work at dropping 50lbs and also see how serious I get back into riding.

FYI - the front is radial straight, Camagnolo Proton 700x32C. The rear is cross spoked Campagnolo Asymmetric 700x32C.

It is a great bike for the price if you know anyone that might be interested. DuraAce levers and rear derailleur and Ultegra brakes and front derailleur.

Again thanks everyone!

The recipe for fatties:-)

So what's the skinny on the cheaper hubsets like Novatec, Monkey, Miche? Not too good?

Get the bike, just get different wheels.
As has been said, the builder makes the difference. I used to carry spokes on long rides and had to true the wheels weekly until I found the right guy. Now I never break a spoke.

I see what you're saying, but I'm still going to respectfully disagree with you. I like to think of master wheel builders as problem solvers. They take specific requests and parameters and figure out options that would fit the bill. Having built over 30 different models of rims, over 20 different models of hubs, and 12 different models of spokes, I have made (reliably) far more than 20 designs. I imagine busier people like Psimet and older builders like Peter White have made even more combinations. Considering I put people into 4 different weight categories plus various tandem configurations with 6 different riding styles, there are already far more than a half dozen requirements of riders. Figuring out what would serve different and unique people is one of the most fun parts of building wheels for others.

Maybe it's semantics. If you're talking different sku's the number of permutations is practically limitless. But if you agree that one 30mm alloy rim is interchangeable with others and that a fat guy's lightweight climbing wheel could be a skinny guy's bulletproof trainer, then the number of designs needed to meet a variety of uses declines to handfuls. For example, I don't remember the details, but Psimet in another thread mentioned that he used something like f/r 270/300 rims + 28/32 spokes for his team's wheels for reliability = a general solution to a problem. Permutations might involve different brands of spokes, hubs, and rims, maybe lacing, perhaps based on price and availability.

No. The wives' tale is that straight gauge spokes build a stronger wheel because they have more material. Jobst Brandt did the FEA work to show how bicycle wheel systems actually work thirty years ago. I'll again refer you to his book if you care to delve in to it.

This doesn't mean you can't build perfectly acceptable wheels with straight gauge spokes. As you noted, wheels are systems. As long as you understand the tradeoffs in using less elastic spokes and overbuild elsewhere to compensate, the wheel will be fine. In the context of this discussion, I responded to another user's suggestion of a wheel with straight gauge spokes on a low-profile, light-weight rim for a heavy rider. I did not consider that a set of tradeoffs that would make me comfortable. YMMV.

Why would anyone agree that a 520 gram Velocity Deep V is interchangeable with a Kinlin XR-300 at 455 grams?

Here is what I am thinking about getting...Mavic Open Pro Wheelset + Shimano Ultegra 6700 Hubs NEW for $275...unless Psimet can give me the same deal. HINT...HINT...Psimet....HINT...HINT

Too many expenses this year from fixing the roof after tornado damage, $11K for my son's auto accident, $2K to fix my truck & now my rear axle on my truck is going bad..."if it weren't for bad luck" LMAO...You have gotta love life, otherwise it will drive you crazy. (that is from me, HEH)

You can check these out, I have read here on BF that this wheel set is an excellent training wheel set. As I said, I plan on getting these for the old birthday.

https://cgi.ebay.com/Mavic-Open-Pro-W...#ht_1085wt_905

That's just it. I would put a Velocity Deep V with only 24 spokes under a clyde, but I'd want 32 spokes on a Kinlin XR-300 for the same guy. I'd be more likely to keep the fat guy on slightly deeper rims like the Kinlin XR-270 for climbing, while the skinny guy would be on something like the Open Pro. I will admit that there are some models I view as absolutely equal, but there's more to it. Teams do tend to choose a general wheelset to put them all on, but I'd bet Psimet wouldn't think twice if they had a clyde on the team who asked for more spokes or a deeper rim, or a fly weight who wanted a lighter build.

You could make one or two designs to meet everyone's "needs". You just overbuild them for the average rider. Of course, that's what most of the off-the-shelf wheelsets do, and that's why wheel builders get business.

Just for Halfspeed, I have yet to come across a Deep V that actually weighed 520. They always seem to be more (up to 580g back in the 90's)!

I sure Mr. Brandt did a good job at the time, but when talking about mechanical reliability, which is a notoriously complicated subject, it would be folly to infer anything from 30-year old or even last week's FEA without physical verification.

Is that the sound of panties bunching that I hear?

As far as straight gauge go - they cost less. They are the base for DB spokes sans additional ops. Sure you can build a wheel with them and it will cost less, be heavier and not any stronger. DB 14g spokes seem to be the sweet spot for stainless alloys used in today's spokes. The tensions needed by the rims combined with the tension balance on the rear seem to combine with the necked down cross section on the DB spoke to provide the right stress for the alloys used. IMHO.

If you'd like to waste your time generating data for a dead market/industry then by all means - go ahead. FEA is FEA. It works - or we wouldn't have the majority of modern structures we have today, but it, like financial numbers, are highly influenced by the individual doing the analysis.

I agree would work for awhile but I would look elsewhere.

Whaaaa, Whaaaaaa, Whaaaaaaat**********??!!!!!!

People have been working with metals for thousands of years - literally.

Spoked wheels have been in widespread use under much more demanding conditions than bicycles for centuries - especially in the last century, when they've been used by motorized vehicles such as automobiles and motorcycles.

The alloys used on bikes are VERY common, most probably having been around 50+ years. They might have been "exotic" and rare 50+ years ago, but there were available and their properties were already well-known.

Steam engines have been around over 200 years, railroads have been around almost two hundered years, metal ships over 150, automobiles and planes over 100. What makes you think mechanical reliability of rotating machinery wasn't WELL understood by about 1890 or so?

To me it looks like a multivariate problem with, other than weight and cost, amorphous performance criteria and plenty of uncertainty.