I was basing my response on a chart I had looked at, at one point. Doing the math though myself the difference in horizontal reach is more than I had realized. Apologies for the bad information.

Though I still believe stem length should be primarily used to get to a proper horizontal reach. This is just what I believe and if I'm wrong about that, I'd love to know as well.

More importantly (since I was away for a while) can you say 'ass' now?

You know what they say about hindsight
Yeah...he should have gone thru door no. 2 but he wouldn't have won so he was gonna lose anyway.
Too bad...otherwise a nice guy who just happened to not cheat as well as the others.

Eh, scream or whisper it doesn't change the fact that the above statement does apply to me, so ... no flipped handlebars! I'm sure I'll get appropriate grief when I post a photo

Yeah I agree with you but you've got to tune that length after you've selected which angle/direction it's going to be else flipping will make the big differences.

<shrug> I've never been on a forum that doesn't just censor words it deems unacceptable using asterisks.

Much more moster besterestest.

SP
Bend, OR

Yup...When I flipped my stem I had to switch from a 110 to 100...Same for my wife when she made the move...

Both were done to achieve proper fit as our bodies got use to being on a bike...

Thank you. And now the computer jockey fitters can all move along.

I, too, have the same issues as you. I also like climbing from the drops. Especially short steep climbs.

For those of you that want to, google Marco Pantani for bike setup.

I know you in particular RW have tremendous access to different bikes you could choose. For me at least, I choose a more racey geometry bike for handling which means a non-comfort head tube length for my long legs which equals a 6 deg up stem to get the bars where I like them which is a bit below the saddle. Yes we could ride a comfort bike with tallish head tube and flat stem but then we would give up the quicker handling of a racier frame geometry. From a weight efficiency standpoint it also makes sense to ride with an upturned stem. This is why in the bike universe which includes mtb's, hybrids, cruisers and everything in between 90% of them have their stem turned up...it is more weight efficient. One can ride the smallest frame size and still get the bars in a place they like them. World class racers have a completely different priority as you know. They ride the raciest frames with shortest head tubes and smallest frame sizes per their body size and yet they still need to slam their stem. This is simply due to their extraordinary flexibility which in part is what makes them so fast and elite racers. The average cyclist or even top amateur cyclist with average flexibility isn't going to ride in the same position and a comfort frame geometry just to achieve a flat stem is silly as no doubt you would agree. Further, from an aesthetic standpoint, taller head tubes look more ungainly to my eye then a slightly turned up stem on a shorter head tube IMHO.

Speaking of Pantini's and his climbing prowess...his 1998 TdF winning Bianchi below and an article about the great man. Take note of the huge gears he could push:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...-reparto-corse