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Originally Posted by oldbobcat
(Post 13564017)
Look at it like this--without foot attachment the power of your pedal stroke is from 1 to 5 o'clock, which means that until the other leg can kick in, the only thing getting the crank to 7 is momentum. Likewise, the leg is basically useless between 11 and 1. Furthermore, you are pushing down with the "slack" leg just trying to keep the foot that isn't doing anything from flying off the pedal. That means your legs are working in opposition, sort of like people who drive with one foot on the gas and the other on the brake.
With attachment, pulling back (wiping your shoe) adds about 60 degrees to the power stroke, which is enough to push the other leg to the start of its power stroke. Also, while few riders using foot attachment actually pull up with strong, consistent force, they do unweight the slack foot and follow the arc of the crank with it. This means the two legs are not working against each other. And excuse me for using the ambiguous term "foot attachment," but whether you use Looks, SPDs, clips and slotted cleats, or medical tape like Dave Stoller, it's all the same. If you want to find the studies, look up the work done by a guy named Cyrille Guimard. He was Lemond's DS. And...now that I think about it I don't know if he actually did the studies or just popularized them via Greg and that book he wrote. |
Originally Posted by Commodus
(Post 13564031)
If you want to find the studies, look up the work done by a guy named Cyrille Guimard. He was Lemond's DS. And...now that I think about it I don't know if he actually did the studies or just popularized them via Greg and that book he wrote.
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They probably like clipless better even if some study says no performance benefit.
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Originally Posted by Commodus
(Post 13564031)
It sounds logical, but studies have shown this to not be true. You can do all of this without attachment.
If you want to find the studies, look up the work done by a guy named Cyrille Guimard. He was Lemond's DS. And...now that I think about it I don't know if he actually did the studies or just popularized them via Greg and that book he wrote. |
Originally Posted by oldbobcat
(Post 13564044)
Then why didn't Renault/Gitane/Elf back up his research and start riding without attachment?
More comfy too, stabilizes the foot. |
When you stand to climb you can pull "up" from 6 to 12 on the pedal stroke with clipless... It feels like you like you are running on top of the bike (i.e. not just pushing down from 12 to 6..)
You can rationalize cages/platforms till the world ends but clipless is still better all day every day. |
Originally Posted by Commodus
(Post 13564031)
It sounds logical, but studies have shown this to not be true. You can do all of this without attachment.
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Originally Posted by byrnemm
(Post 13564086)
When you stand to climb you can pull "up" from 6 to 12 on the pedal stroke with clipless... It feels like you like you are running on top of the bike (i.e. not just pushing down from 12 to 6..)
You can rationalize cages/platforms till the world ends but clipless is still better all day every day. |
Originally Posted by BarracksSi
(Post 13564100)
So, is the fact that if I apply any effort to any part of the upstroke my foot comes off my platform pedals all in my head and only my imagination? Man, I'm so misinformed.
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Originally Posted by BarracksSi
(Post 13564100)
So, is the fact that if I apply any effort to any part of the upstroke my foot comes off my platform pedals all in my head and only my imagination?
You want to pedal efficiently? You can do the footscrape at the bottom to help alleviate the deadspot, other than that forget about consciously pushing or pulling at any point in the stroke. |
So a piece of gear that lets me ride longer and more easily is a bad thing.
Okay. Got it. I've deluded myself all these years. I can't wait to make things more difficult again. I'm glad you saved me from being another idiot. I kiss your feet. |
Originally Posted by BarracksSi
(Post 13564134)
So a piece of gear that lets me ride longer and more easily is a bad thing.
Okay. Got it. I've deluded myself all these years. I can't wait to make things more difficult again. I'm glad you saved me from being another idiot. I kiss your feet. |
Then you must be right.
For the record, virtually all competitive cyclists used toeclips until the 1985 season. Greg LeMond and Bernard Hinault were teammates, coached by Guimard through 1983. Hinault joined La Vie Claire in 1984 where he tested and endorsed a new product developed by the Look ski binding division, the step-in pedal. Greg joined him in 1985. By early 1990s the majority of the pro peloton were using some manner of clip-in pedal. Sean Kelly, who retired in 1994, was the last significant holdout for toeclips. Anybody who rides must see that getting to the podium of the 1989 world championship road race absolutely required some way of keeping the feet attached to the pedals. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_I4Snyzw2IM...989_worlds.jpg Note the belt-and-suspenders approach (Looks and toe straps) taken by the winner, LeMond. |
Originally Posted by BarracksSi
(Post 13564134)
So a piece of gear that lets me ride longer and more easily is a bad thing.
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Originally Posted by oldbobcat
(Post 13564147)
Note the belt-and-suspenders approach (Looks and toe straps) taken by the winner, LeMond.
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Originally Posted by matimeo
(Post 13564109)
You are stating opinion as fact. Not helping your point. Nobody is saying platforms are better than clipless. Why's everybody so defensive?
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Originally Posted by nathan.johnson
(Post 13563435)
I wonder what percentage of cyclists don't fall at least once when switching to clipless pedals...
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
(Post 13564152)
Quite a few track riders run clipless AND straps to this day.
Of course, the new shoes are a lot more comfortable after 50 or 100 miles. But I often wonder if they could be made better by moving the ratcheted buckle up where the strap used to go. |
Thanks for the spirited debate gentlemen; So are clipless pedals worth it in the end? I mean are the benefits of safety and control really that great?
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Originally Posted by ellenman
(Post 13564186)
Thanks for the spirited debate gentlemen; So are clipless pedals worth it in the end? I mean are the benefits of safety and control really that great?
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They are for me. Anytime I'm on sketchy pavement I would much rather be securely attached to the bike.
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Originally Posted by caloso
(Post 13563090)
Beats me. I like clipless pedals for the comfort and secure connection. If there's any additional power transfer, that's a bonus.
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If you spend a little time on platforms it's really second nature to keep your feet on the pedals. The only time I find it rough is when it's wet out, cuz my pins are pretty worn out.
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Maybe, but clipped in I can be "lazy" and just focus on moving the legs. Maybe that means my form is bad and that I use clipless as a crutch but I like them and will never ride without unless it's just a fun ride with the family or something but even then I usually use clipless because that's what the bike has. I can also "pull-up" to try and get a bit more power into a climb. I know people say it's a myth, but it can be done, it has an effect and my muscles get tired quite quickly so they must be doing something they don't normally do.
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
(Post 13564227)
If you spend a little time on platforms it's really second nature to keep your feet on the pedals. The only time I find it rough is when it's wet out, cuz my pins are pretty worn out.
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Originally Posted by BarracksSi
(Post 13564240)
Yeah, that's how I did it for... uh... the first twenty years on a bike.
http://images.nitrosell.com/product_...1/94/05310.jpg Currently I have one bike with touring platforms/clips/straps, one bike with 105 road pedals/clips/straps, two with BMX platforms and a couple with MTB pedals/clips/straps. |
I mean, jeezus, did you think that the first time I rode a bicycle was six months ago? And some shop took advantage of my noobishness and sold me some clipless pedals and said I would be on the Tour in no time?
I started riding a bike when I was 7. I didn't use any foot retention until I was 27. I loved it. It made offroad riding easier, it made on-road riding easier. I really don't understand why I'm supposed to regress to plain pedals. My commuter still has plain platforms. But, I don't bother using it for anything further than a few miles. If I want to, I can put some of my clipless pedals on it and take it for a long ride. |
Originally Posted by BarracksSi
(Post 13564253)
I mean, jeezus, did you think that the first time I rode a bicycle was six months ago?
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And, no, I've banished toeclips n' straps from my bikes. Not even half-clips. Tried them both, didn't like them. To get a secure connection, I'd have to cinch them down -- which makes them harder to undo than clipless. If I want to get out of them easily, I can't cinch them down -- which makes them useless as a retention device. If I have to get going before I've flipped the pedal over and slid my foot into the cage without re-flipping them upside down again, leaving the cage hanging underneath, they drag on the pavement -- making my CB Mallet pedals seem like low-profile Speedplays by comparison. I've even wondered if the chrome MKS half-clips I used to use would make sparks when they dragged.
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
(Post 13564258)
I honestly have no idea what you're on about. The point of my last post was that nice BMX platforms are WAY better than rat traps. Take that as you will.
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