Is Specialized a Bully?
01-06-12 | 08:38 PM
#101
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From: Southwest TN
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac S-Works
01-06-12 | 08:39 PM
#102
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im boycotting them now,the compete contract is void but apparently some of you dont understand it means nothing in cali,2 unless they have physical proof they took stuff from them they have no case they are just trying to muscle them
01-06-12 | 08:46 PM
#103
stole your bike
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: North Bergen, NJ
Bikes: Orbea Orca, Ridley Compact
This really isn't as strange as you guys are making it out to be. If Specialized requires its employees to sign the same standard agreement that most manufacturing companies do, they will win this suit.
Probably all equipment manufacturers with enough money for legal counsel have, as a part of the employment arrangement, a clause that assigns all industry-related inventions created by the employee during their term of employment to the company. This is true whether the invention was created at work, at home, or at a competitor's shop. The same deal is signed by every employee. It would be extremely unusual for a company like Specialized NOT to have such a provision. And it would be extremely unusual for a new hire not to sign it. (If they didn't sign it, they would not be hired. The company would assume that the person came to the relationship with less than pure motives.)
Volagi's principals made a number of mistakes. First, of course, they very likely violated their employment agreements in a big way. (Something that Specialized CANNOT let slide, lest their I.P. all be subject to appropriation.) Were they insane or just stupid? Probably just stupid. (Hire a lawyer before you do something this big!!) Second, they didn't wait long enough to have a plausible argument that they invented their technology after they left Specialized. The time line for this deal (their departure from Specialized practically on top of a competitive product introduction) makes this a very easy, and relatively inexpensive, case for Specialized to win. Because the bike was invented during their time at Specialized, Specialized OWNS their design! Asking for a royalty is going easy on these guys. Most former employers would not be so charitable as to let the new entity continue to exist. They could very well press charges for theft.
Probably all equipment manufacturers with enough money for legal counsel have, as a part of the employment arrangement, a clause that assigns all industry-related inventions created by the employee during their term of employment to the company. This is true whether the invention was created at work, at home, or at a competitor's shop. The same deal is signed by every employee. It would be extremely unusual for a company like Specialized NOT to have such a provision. And it would be extremely unusual for a new hire not to sign it. (If they didn't sign it, they would not be hired. The company would assume that the person came to the relationship with less than pure motives.)
Volagi's principals made a number of mistakes. First, of course, they very likely violated their employment agreements in a big way. (Something that Specialized CANNOT let slide, lest their I.P. all be subject to appropriation.) Were they insane or just stupid? Probably just stupid. (Hire a lawyer before you do something this big!!) Second, they didn't wait long enough to have a plausible argument that they invented their technology after they left Specialized. The time line for this deal (their departure from Specialized practically on top of a competitive product introduction) makes this a very easy, and relatively inexpensive, case for Specialized to win. Because the bike was invented during their time at Specialized, Specialized OWNS their design! Asking for a royalty is going easy on these guys. Most former employers would not be so charitable as to let the new entity continue to exist. They could very well press charges for theft.
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01-06-12 | 08:56 PM
#104
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From: Northern California
Bikes: Raleigh Grand Prix, Giant Innova, Nishiki Sebring, Trek 7.5FX
Damn!..Judging by this thread, it would behoove Specialized to drop the lawsuit altogether!
It certainly isn't gaining them any prospective customers in this neighborhood!
- Slim
PS.
Specialized leaves a bad taste in my mouth for other nefarious reasons...
It certainly isn't gaining them any prospective customers in this neighborhood!
- Slim
PS.
Specialized leaves a bad taste in my mouth for other nefarious reasons...
Last edited by SlimRider; 01-06-12 at 09:02 PM.
01-06-12 | 09:10 PM
#105
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From: Central Ohio
Bikes: Waterford R33, 2019 Infinito, Gunnar Roadie, 1999 Colnago Tecnos, '04 Cannondale Optimo 800 & '51 Rudge Sports, Colnago Tecnos, Tom Kellogg Merlin..
01-06-12 | 09:12 PM
#106
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those volagi seem like very nice bikes!!! and having volagi sued will hype their sales ....its a statement many can enjoy. so get your volagi while they still exist! 
01-06-12 | 09:15 PM
#107
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From: Central Ohio
Bikes: Waterford R33, 2019 Infinito, Gunnar Roadie, 1999 Colnago Tecnos, '04 Cannondale Optimo 800 & '51 Rudge Sports, Colnago Tecnos, Tom Kellogg Merlin..
01-06-12 | 09:20 PM
#108
Banned
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From: Pasadena, CA(for now)
You must not read bikesnobnyc
That site you linked, kinda scares me.
01-06-12 | 09:23 PM
#109
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From: Delaware shore
Bikes: Cervelo C5, Guru Photon, Waterford, Specialized CX
Most of us are rooting for the little guy, but with what seem to be few exceptions we are laypersons with respect to the legal issues, even those of us who have signed various types of employment agreements. I'm rooting for the little guy despite the faint possibility that my Volagi would become a priceless heirloom if they were to cease production.
I'll offer my HI Express opinion, however: how could the two former employees working in the capacity indicated be exposed to "trade secrets". See wiki for what probably is a reasonable definition. The trade secret can't be in the design of the Roubaix, for example, because there is no prohibition against reverse engineering a trade secret. And so what if the Volagi looks like something else unless a) there are patented features inherent in a Specialized design that Volagi has copied, or b) the Volagi design was aided by proprietary information to which the former employees were exposed.
It's just as likely that Specialized is concerned not by the direct competitive threat, but by the interest in higher performance, light weight, disc brake-equipped road bikes. Volagi has received some very good press and while Specialized is more than capable of offering such a bike, doing so will cannibalize their current product line in which they have a sizable investment (tooling, R&D, advertising, etc.). It may be that one or more of Specialized competitors is closer to release of a disc brake road bike and Specialized desires to slow down market interest.
Should be interesting to see what the court decides. It is a great bike.
I'll offer my HI Express opinion, however: how could the two former employees working in the capacity indicated be exposed to "trade secrets". See wiki for what probably is a reasonable definition. The trade secret can't be in the design of the Roubaix, for example, because there is no prohibition against reverse engineering a trade secret. And so what if the Volagi looks like something else unless a) there are patented features inherent in a Specialized design that Volagi has copied, or b) the Volagi design was aided by proprietary information to which the former employees were exposed.
It's just as likely that Specialized is concerned not by the direct competitive threat, but by the interest in higher performance, light weight, disc brake-equipped road bikes. Volagi has received some very good press and while Specialized is more than capable of offering such a bike, doing so will cannibalize their current product line in which they have a sizable investment (tooling, R&D, advertising, etc.). It may be that one or more of Specialized competitors is closer to release of a disc brake road bike and Specialized desires to slow down market interest.
Should be interesting to see what the court decides. It is a great bike.
Thanks for the informative post. That was my thoughts as well about the "trade secrets"
01-06-12 | 09:24 PM
#110
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Anybody on here ridden the Volagi Liscio?
Care to comment on the ride characteristics and up-close aesthetics?
Care to comment on the ride characteristics and up-close aesthetics?
01-06-12 | 09:32 PM
#111
moth -----> flame
Joined: Dec 2007
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From: SF Bay Area
Bikes: 18 Tarmac SL6, 11 CAAD 10-4, 07 Specialized Roubaix Comp, 98 Peugeot Horizon
I don't believe that this has anything to do with similarity to any Specialized bikes, disk brakes, colors or any other aspect of the Specialized product line. I think that this comes down to Choi and Forsman likely having signed employment contracts with Specialized that assigned all their inventions to Specialized during the term of their employment. If you follow that assumption, then Specialized don't believe that they stole anything from their current line, rather the they *own* the Volagi bike design/intellectual property under the terms of their employee contracts. If so, then they are suing Volagi for selling a bike that is covered by Specialized intellectual property.
What makes this unfortunate in my eye is that between the Facebook posting and the bike rumor interview, it seems as though they are incriminating themselves somewhat by flagging that they had the ideas while employees, or at least during their notice period.
https://www.bikerumor.com/2012/01/05/...it/#more-38592
https://www.facebook.com/volagi/posts/355322411151386
What makes this unfortunate in my eye is that between the Facebook posting and the bike rumor interview, it seems as though they are incriminating themselves somewhat by flagging that they had the ideas while employees, or at least during their notice period.
https://www.bikerumor.com/2012/01/05/...it/#more-38592
https://www.facebook.com/volagi/posts/355322411151386
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01-06-12 | 10:48 PM
#112
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Joined: Jun 2008
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From: Northern VA
Bikes: Moots Vamoots, Colnago C60, Santa Cruz Stigmata CC, and too many other bikes I don't ride
I don't believe that this has anything to do with similarity to any Specialized bikes, disk brakes, colors or any other aspect of the Specialized product line. I think that this comes down to Choi and Forsman likely having signed employment contracts with Specialized that assigned all their inventions to Specialized during the term of their employment. If you follow that assumption, then Specialized don't believe that they stole anything from their current line, rather the they *own* the Volagi bike design/intellectual property under the terms of their employee contracts. If so, then they are suing Volagi for selling a bike that is covered by Specialized intellectual property.
What makes this unfortunate in my eye is that between the Facebook posting and the bike rumor interview, it seems as though they are incriminating themselves somewhat by flagging that they had the ideas while employees, or at least during their notice period.
https://www.bikerumor.com/2012/01/05/...it/#more-38592
https://www.facebook.com/volagi/posts/355322411151386
What makes this unfortunate in my eye is that between the Facebook posting and the bike rumor interview, it seems as though they are incriminating themselves somewhat by flagging that they had the ideas while employees, or at least during their notice period.
https://www.bikerumor.com/2012/01/05/...it/#more-38592
https://www.facebook.com/volagi/posts/355322411151386
01-06-12 | 11:42 PM
#113
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,957
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From: Hollister, CA
Bikes: Volagi, daVinci Joint Venture
I'm 200 lbs so the difference between my Giant OCR1 and the Volagi can't be more than 4-5 pounds, but what really surprised me is the difference in climbing out of the saddle. There is no question that when I'm standing on something steep (>12% for me) it takes considerably less energy to handle the bike at these low speeds. We've got a nasty 2400' climb right next to our house and the difference was discernible and with no fade on the really nasty descent. With the 11-32 on the Volagi I've got basically the same gearing as on the Giant triple, a necessity for us legitimate senior citizens.
01-06-12 | 11:44 PM
#114
Peloton Shelter Dog
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From: Chester, NY
Bikes: 2017 Scott Foil, 2016 Scott Addict SL, 2018 Santa Cruz Blur CC MTB
The company sucks.
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01-07-12 | 12:14 AM
#115
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But we shall see soon enough. There's no reason to swear off Specialized for good yet, we don't know how it's going to turn out, but at this point it looks very plausible that either side could be right. We just don't have all the details yet.
01-07-12 | 12:17 AM
#116
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So I read through this diatribe and am still at a loss to figure out what the great leap in bicycle technology that these guys have stolen? Anyone? Disc brakes on a road bike. Curved seat stays, no less GT style from the 90's. Longer wheelbase. Color scheme, maybe if it was Celeste.
Specialized legal department is going to be busy suing everyone.
Specialized legal department is going to be busy suing everyone.
01-07-12 | 12:27 AM
#117
Zoom zoom zoom zoom bonk
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From: New Zealand
Bikes: Giant Defy, Trek 1.7c, BMC GF02, Trek Marlin 6, Scott Sub 35, Kona Rove, Trek Verve+2
I hope specy sue them for everything, then build that bike themselves and sell it cheaper.
Because I bloody want one.
Because I bloody want one.
01-07-12 | 12:30 AM
#118
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So I read through this diatribe and am still at a loss to figure out what the great leap in bicycle technology that these guys have stolen? Anyone? Disc brakes on a road bike. Curved seat stays, no less GT style from the 90's. Longer wheelbase. Color scheme, maybe if it was Celeste.
Specialized legal department is going to be busy suing everyone.
Specialized legal department is going to be busy suing everyone.
01-07-12 | 01:17 AM
#119
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From: Riverside, CA
Bikes: Lynskey R230 DA DI2 ENVE 3.4 SES, 6KU Fixie, Cheap Aluminum Slapstick Trainer only bike
I think got the message... Ain't buying specialized bike anytime soon at this rate.
01-07-12 | 03:17 AM
#120
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Trust me when I say: the more people dont buy anything from them, the more it hurts their bottom.line. In this tough economy, even gigantic bike companies like Specialized, cant afford to lose money. Looks like theyre well on their way to losing ALOT of $$$.
Someone needs to ask the company, when its all over with, was it really worth it? Bet their answer will be no.
Last edited by LemondFanForeve; 01-07-12 at 03:23 AM.
01-07-12 | 04:15 AM
#121
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From: Fort Wayne, IN
Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9-4
From the way it sounds, by ALOT of folks here, sounds like we should be abstaining from buy ANYTHING Specialized? Shame they have to be such big ****bags about things. Really disappointed with the company as a whole. I can tell you this: they wont be getting any of my $$$ anytime soon.
Trust me when I say: the more people dont buy anything from them, the more it hurts their bottom.line. In this tough economy, even gigantic bike companies like Specialized, cant afford to lose money. Looks like theyre well on their way to losing ALOT of $$$.
Someone needs to ask the company, when its all over with, was it really worth it? Bet their answer will be no.
Trust me when I say: the more people dont buy anything from them, the more it hurts their bottom.line. In this tough economy, even gigantic bike companies like Specialized, cant afford to lose money. Looks like theyre well on their way to losing ALOT of $$$.
Someone needs to ask the company, when its all over with, was it really worth it? Bet their answer will be no.
01-07-12 | 04:26 AM
#122
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Joined: Nov 2009
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From: Lancaster, CA
Bikes: 1988 Schwinn Letour, 1989 Schwinn Tempo, 1998 Schwinn Circuit, 1996 Trek 7000ZX MTB, 2009 Motobecane Cafe Sprint, 2008 Cannondale CAAD 9, 2005 Fuji Team SL
I read this entire thread. All I can say is if going to work for a bike company means you can't later quit and build a bike that is nothing like theirs, then no matter what they signed it is ethically wrong. I am someone who believes the market place can right some wrongs. To summarize F*** Specialized. They won't see a dime of my money ever again.
01-07-12 | 04:35 AM
#123
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From: Someplace trying to figure it out
Bikes: Cannondale EVO, CAAD9, Giant cross bike.
What cracks me is the Sworks line. Essentially it's their pro frame. Like an EVO, or a Madone 6, or a Giant TCR Advanced SL. Ever compare pricing between SWorks and the rest that I mentioned. And people pay it.
Oh well.
I will say this...in am my past employment, the one real constant was that anything you did while "on the clock" or "under the employ" of the comapny paying you meant that material was owned by said company. I am getting the impression that Specialized is saying that these guys were working on this bike while working at Specialized (nights, weekends, etc.) and given the turnaround time for production and knowing a little bit about the life of a bike design, I'd tend to agree. I did not read every single post on this, but I spotted some comments alluding to the fact that the designers virtually admitted such. If that's the case, there's little recourse for them. If they were designing a bike while employed at Specialized, even if it was at the kitchen table at midnight, it's a Specialized bike, given what I have been told over the years.
Given all this, I'd still never have them in a shop I owned. And a couple of people have told me that if you work there and quit, don't expect a "goodbye lunch" or anyone wishing you the best. But from the reading I've done and the people I've talked to, that's Sinyard's style.
Last edited by roadwarrior; 01-07-12 at 04:48 AM.
01-07-12 | 04:49 AM
#124
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From: Someplace trying to figure it out
Bikes: Cannondale EVO, CAAD9, Giant cross bike.
Financially, I doubt Volagi has pulled in what Speciallized has spent thus far. This isn't about getting back financial losses. This is about crushing them before they get off the ground and sending a message to their employees about what happens if you leave Specialized and try to stay in the industry. They don't even really think that a firm that has only sold <200 bikes thus far can compete with them. If Volagi survives this, great press/exposure for them though.
01-07-12 | 04:51 AM
#125
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From: Someplace trying to figure it out
Bikes: Cannondale EVO, CAAD9, Giant cross bike.
Yes. Specialized often tries to dictate what products by other brands their dealers sell.
They also do things like reserve S-Works selling rights for only their most dedicated dealers. For example a dealer that only makes a small preseason order from Specialized and sells several other brands of bikes and accessories might not even be allowed to special order any S-Works bikes. So if a customer comes in and really wants an S-Works Tarmac, Specialized won't even let that dealer order the bike for the customer because that dealer isn't "dedicated" enough to "deserve" the right to order any S-Works bikes.
They also do things like reserve S-Works selling rights for only their most dedicated dealers. For example a dealer that only makes a small preseason order from Specialized and sells several other brands of bikes and accessories might not even be allowed to special order any S-Works bikes. So if a customer comes in and really wants an S-Works Tarmac, Specialized won't even let that dealer order the bike for the customer because that dealer isn't "dedicated" enough to "deserve" the right to order any S-Works bikes.