I posted the price I paid for my light S-works. Thats brand new, straight from a dealer. I'm not sure what you're still arguing about. MSRP and what people pay are two totally different things. You're yapping about $11,000 MSRPs, and yet I don't know anybody that has ever paid close to that much for a bicycle.

So there's you're answer. There's a huge margin in high end bikes, and almost nobody pays that.

Right, but what's your time worth? Not just the time to build the thing and source the parts, but the [Malcolm Gladwell] 10,000 hours it took you to get an eye for a good deal. If people want a turnkey solution (yours is definitely NOT a turnkey solution), many manufacturers will sell it to them. For a price.

Good answer, thanks. I appreciate the time you took to analyze the question. Please let me rebut a little. No not everyone can ride a medium frame, but unlike in the past with women reviewers, many bike reviews are done on that size and the weights quoted relate to that or to only one size up. I already stipulated what weight is sacrificed in going to heavier wheels. It is more than offset by the weights of the new generation of frames. If Cannondale and Willier didn't care some about weight, they wouldn't be making sub 800 g frames. My stem is aluminum, not carbon. Carbon bars are surely used on many of the top of the line big company bikes. You got me on the tubes. They are a bit of a stretch (pun intended). Lightest butyl tubes you can buy. To answer my own question, I think that there are attractive, very light weight choices in every component type. I suspect the manufacturers are just not "going all the way". One guy is using light pedals but heavy bar and stem, another light post but heavy pedals, etc. So the light components are being used, otherwise sub-1500 g bikes wouldn't be possible. If they are all being used somewhere, why not use them all in one place? That is a rhetorical question. Doesn't need an answer. Thanks.

Robert

Your bikes are the best bikes ever specified. They are optimized for all riders and all preferences and still deliver lowest weights. We collectively bow to your wisdom and thank you for sharing your build specifications and your disdain.

Good point. Thanks.

Robert

Hey, bud, I am not the one who started slinging the disdain around. But let me say in the spirit of cycling cameraderie, I envy you. You never have to wonder whether you could be riding a better bike and paying less for it. You are really lucky to prefer high priced mediocity. Aaah! If only I could be so small minded. Enjoy.

Sure I agree with that.

I wonder who wrote this stuff?

That's in response mostly to a bunch of people asking whether you added up the weights manufacturers of different parts weigh, or if you put your bike on a scale. It's a legitimate question when somebody brags about the unusually diminutive weight of their bike.

Cuz you've made significant concessions to achieve that weight, that most people are not willing to make.

Also, red equipped carbon bikes do not cost $3500 new, so we're not really comparing apples to apples.

You make a thoughtful point. In going back to look, I see that you are largely but not entirely correct. Some of the replies were indeed helpful and well intentioned. The particular post that I quoted was patently offensive. Why is that a part of participating in this forum? And the comment about trolling. Why do so many of the forum participants fixate on that? How are they being harmed? Can't a post be taken at face value rather than it be torn apart without even considering the content? And it is likely my background showing through, but after 40 years in chemical research, it would never occur to me to ask someone quoting a weight whether he had weighed the object or were just guessing. Are you kidding me? People used to duel over insults like that. Furthermore it never occurred to me that I was bragging, just setting out some facts I thought would be helpful to others. Oh well!

Robert

I'm still sporting cottered steel cranks. I'm trying for the ultimate bike, sub 30lbs. Thats with some rad Super Champion Record du Monde rims 315gr. I think I'm down to 28lbs with my spare under the Wrights W5N leather saddle. Oh yeah, hand made in France some 40 years ago. Thinking of drilling my MAFAC brake levers to shave a few grams. Just talking about it makes me want to go for a ride. Washed my wool shorts this morning and put them out in the sun to dry. Hope the chamios isnt too crispy.

Your comment about concessions is very interesting to me. That is exactly why I posted in the first place. Please tell me what you mean. When I point out the choices I made and suggest they are not concessions, I get thrashed on the grounds of my style of setting out the information. But the underlying quality issues is the discussion I was hoping to have. Please say more. And as for the price difference, yes it is not apples to apples, but isn't that the point? Cheaper bike, lighter weight.

You don't even know what I ride, "bud". Enjoy your ****ty brakes.

I hope you remember to wear your Skid Lid. Yeah, I was there too. Fun then. Fun now.

Keep in mind that this forum (probably all of them) is a collection of people who are very dedicated to cycling, plus people who enjoy trolling each other, plus people who are sitting at work, bored out of their minds, wishing their situation was different, and other types, too.

Lots of people come here, set up a new account (eg they've never been seen before), and start a thread on some inane topic ... that sort of ruins it for people we don't already know, who want to talk about something off the beaten track. We had a guy who didn't know how to remove his "dork disc" and decided burning it should work. There was another guy who got a set of aerobars, saw fit to attach them using zip ties, and promptly crashed. This other guy, with impulsivity and anger issues, chased a driver down and wound up in handcuffs outside a convenience store, being hugged by a security guard. None of this has much bearing on you, except that you're new here, and a lot of people are just slightly suspicious because of that.

This will all blow over, probably by tomorrow. And then people will be happy to talk about what you came here for in the first place.

OP with his low post count and sandy skivvies seems like a sock of somebody... but I can't quite place the writing and debate style.

Yes, I think you are right about cycling forums. But not about all forums. Photography forums are night and day different. The greatest deference is given to the newest members to bring them along. They ask the oldest questions over and over and never get chastised, only led to the already recorded answers. I guess there is no machismo attached to shooting pictures of butterflies. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Robert

I'm not entirely certain which bikes you're discussing.

For example, the Jamis Xenith SL is $9500, and quoted as 13.75 lbs; the Xenith Elite with SRAM Red is quoted as 15.25 lbs with an MSRP of $5000. The Cannondale Evo Ultimate is 10.89 lbs with an MSRP of $12,000; the Evo 2 Red is around 13.6 pounds and MSRP $5500.

Also keep in mind that some of the "aero road bikes" are phenomenally expensive, but are designed to be aero rather than light. They're the "latest thing," and as such are getting more press lately.

So, I'm pretty sure most of the ~15 pound bikes are running around $5000, whereas the 13 pounders are in the $10k+ range.


First, you're buying parts that are used our outside normal sales channels. Obviously, that's going to dramatically lower the costs.

Second, and as mentioned, you haven't calculated all the labor, shipping and inventory costs that you're covering. E.g. that Cdale Evo requires labor at the factory, has to be stored until someone orders it, shipped to the LBS, maybe sits at the LBS, and is worked on at the LBS.

Third, you don't have to pay for liability. If you made a minor mistake that results in your eating pavement, you aren't going to sue yourself.

Fourth, you're not selling these bikes -- you're using them. You don't have marketing costs, you don't have to pay taxes on your sales, you don't need to make a profit, you don't have warranty costs, you don't have store or warehouse overhead, you don't have to pay accountants, you don't have to release quarterly sales figures, you aren't giving dozens of top-of-the-line bikes to pro teams. How long would Cannondale stay in business, if they sold their über-bikes at cost?

Or, to put all this another way: Materials are a small part of the cost of that bike sitting on the LBS sales floor. Everyone at every step of the way has an array of transportation, legal, warranty, labor, tax, marketing, PR, inventory and business overhead costs -- and runs the risk of getting stuck with unsold goods.

As Joe Cyclist building a bike in your garage out of Fleabay parts, none of this is part of your experience. And it's pretty much why a bike that costs you $3,500 to build out of leftovers will cost $10,000 at the LBS.

Aw, is baby upset? What's the matter, you can give it but can't take it? After the way you came in here with your offensive sarcasm, why would I even care what you ride? And by the way, I do enjoy my brakes. They work great. If you have any you want to get rid of, just let me know. I will be happy to take them off your hands. But that's not possible. If you had any, you would know how good they are.

It's also important to keep in mind almost all the manufacturer claimed weights are withour pedals. When you add them, that's another 1/2 lb.

Very good point. I forgot about that. And in honesty, that is how I weighed my bikes also. No intent to mislead, I just forgot. Thanks for reminding me.

Hey sorry to the OP since I uttered the "T" word, but you gotta admit it...asking about light weight, assuming that lighter is better (which is a clear crock), low post count, quoting that rag "Bicycling" all seem pretty provocative...

But I will go ahead and offer my apologies.

Doug

Hah! Who's the "T" word now?

Rarely is lighter not better. Unless stiffness, or strength are compromised. Trust me on this. My 12.99lbs bike kicks the crap out of my 15.54lbs bike, and makes both of them kick the crap out of my other heavier bikes.

Your 17lbs. bike may be good, but if it was lighter it would be better. It may be "Amazingly good" now, but it could be "Unbelievably good" if it was 4 or 5lbs less.

I agree with your comments about "Bicyling" magazine. They are published by Rodale Publishing, which is a joke of a company.

I was thinking of the Trek Madone at $11,686 and 14.9 lb, the Giant TCR Advanced SL1 at $6,900 and 14.8 lb, and the Conago M10 at $9,500 and 15.49 lb (wow!). One thing you seem to overlook is that I paid for all those manufacturers costs in every part that I bought. And when has it been possible to build something from spare parts as cheaply as buy it all together? Usually bikes are supposed to be a bargain over the sum of the prices of the individual components. Enough about the costs, that really wasn't my emphasis anyway.

But to shift gears a little, why all the snarky comments about my methodology like "Fleabay" and "leftovers"? Isn't ebay a tremendous boon to cyclists? Not to replace LBSs, but to compelement them? I for one couldn't afford my hobbies without ebay.