[strike]Look OP. You asked a fairly open ended question, got loads of valid answers/reasons, and have responded defensively and with repeated effort to vastly limit the frame of your original post. Maybe take a step back and accept that you have your answer(s). [/strike]

Lighter DOES equal trade offs (whether you personal accept or realize that they are real), manufacturers and LBS have different realities than a home builder, and cost IS a very relevant component of your discussion topic. Sure, you got some feather-ruffling responses but you also got a ton of quality answers to your question. So what is the problem or further question? If it is solely "why don't they make lighter in the top tier bikes" you already have a bunch of perfectly correct answers. Which one comes into play depends on the manufacturer, their corp culture, and their spec decisions. Bottom line is that lower weight comes at a price for them and often at a sacrifice for their customers (not necessarily price).

EDIT: Strikethrough after finishing the last page. Seems you have dialed it back and understand that there were reasons/answers to your core question.

I hope you don't mean DPR.

Yes (I'm aware of that). And the "2 for 1" rule appears to exaggerate the acceleration issue.

Which is why "especially true" being applied to pedal weight when rotated was funny!

Sorry, I will choose my words more carefully next time.

And I'm explaining to you that your perceptions of costs are skewed.

Specialized can't go on eBay and order up a bunch of NOS SRAM Red derailleurs. They have to buy them from SRAM or distributors, they have to buy tens of thousands of them, they have to ship them to a factory, they have to be there on a set schedule. And as Bob Dopalina pointed out earlier, a tiny increase in the price of a single part can blow the budget for a production line.


As I pointed out, the people who pay the big bucks generally DO get the lighter bike.

The exception is when they are paying for some other function, feature or quality. E.g. DA Di2 or high-end wheels carry a big price premium. "Aero" road bikes like the Specialized Venge are optimized for narrow uses, and focus on aerodynamics and/or stiffness rather than low weight.


...and again, what you fail to realize is that your experiences are not a valid point of comparison.

What you perceive as "room for improvement" are costs that you, as a person buying stuff as cheaply as possible, taking your time, and building the bike only for yourself, don't have to pay -- and the manufacturer does.

It'd be like buying a used Ferrari 428 for $75k and pouring another $25k into it, and saying "why can't Ferrari sell the new 428's for $100k instead of $220k? If I can whack $120k off the costs, surely Ferrari can as well."

As I see it, the question has been well answered. On the other hand I can't (and don't really want) to tell folks to stop contributing on this topic. I am happy to read and respond to whatever anyone wants to offer. The one thing that is left for me to do is to post some photos to confirm the weights that I claim. That will take about a week due to me being out of pocket for several days.

Not to dial it in the other direction again, but I would submit that I responded to every post in kind. Rude, offensive, insulting and/or manipulative responses were answered in the same vein. Straightforward, respectful, informative posts were also answered in a like manner. Seems right to me. I don't see how that can be faulted. Thanks for your own participation.

That's fine with me, as I only fit on the smallest frameset available.

I used to care a lot about how much my bikes weighed, largely in part to this forum and during the fast club rides that I did. On my Madone, I went all out whenever I got a piece of gear for it. You know, getting carbon bottle holders, lighter pedals, a tiny saddle bag with minimal gear like the little tiny nozzle for a CO cartridge.

After my daughter was born and I got out out of cycling as intensely for the last three years and now finally starting to put on more miles, I don't even worry about the weight. It's cheaper (and healthier) to lose the weight off of myself or to increase my own ability than it is to buy the newest lightweight toy. I'd rather people see me riding my heavy-as-sin Trek 1000 with handlebar bag, rear rack, frame pump, big saddle bag, and maybe even pulling my daughter in a Burley trailer....and be in good shape than for them to see me with a gut and a super-lightweight Madone.

I see it all the time...super nice bikes that are equipped to be lightweight but the owner is definetely overweight. I don't hold anything against them for having a nice bike, but I think they'd be better off if they spent more time on that bike instead of scouring the internet for something lighter to put on it.

Well said. Now how about imagining having both the lightweight bike and the lightweight body. Wouldn't that be sweet? Sigh!

I surely understand what you are saying. Not knowing all you folks' backgrounds there is no way for me to know who may or may not be really expert on this topic, i.e. who may actually project manager for Trek or some such thing and be truly authoritative. Even so I grant that what you say should not be discounted out of hand. Of the answers I have received, however, I find the one about limiting liability stemming from over-lightening the bikes and the need to "fit" a bike to a wide variety of rider weights and styles to be the more convincing. My own belief is that wholesale pricing of mass purchased bike parts and the cost of Asian labor being what they are, there is plenty of room in the budget for upgrades that result in lightening. But enough said. We should most likely agree to disagree. Thanks for your input. It is truly appreciated.

One thing that this thread proves is the benefit of rolling your own. Additionally, wrenching is one of the pastimes which I thoroughly enjoy about this hobby.

Actually yes. I am referring to DPR Printers and Printing forum. Also Dyxum for Minolta/Sony owners. I am sorry if your experience on DPR has not been as pleasant and fulfilling as my own.

Yes you're right. I find it particularly interesting that this is the case in bicycles but completely different from automobiles. I doubt that you could construct any automobile from individual parts, even used ones, that could come anywhere close to the price of the same car new and complete from the manufacturer. Is it because bike parts are so much cheaper relative to their cost when used in the OEM mode than auto parts are? Or is it because new complete bike prices are so inflated. Lots of responders to this thread seem to think that the price for a new complete bike is right and fully justified by all the overhead in the industry. If that's right it would say that the individual parts, new or used, parts are crazy reasonable as compared to the auto scenario. I just don't know. But I can say I take full advantage of the situation. I can hardly change my own motor oil, but it sure is easy and satisfying to build my own bike.

This. I've read (and believe) that a new Honda Accord is worth 3-5x more if it were in parts alone. The more hands which touch an automotive part, the more expensive it becomes.

13-14 pounds? Under 8.5 right here:
https://portland.craigslist.org/clk/bik/3061767120.html

BikeForums has a sub-forum called Trollheim, which is the closest analogy I can find here to what I've seen on DPR...

I thought that discussion belongs in the MTB forum?!?

Problem is I don't know you well enough to know whether you are joking, but I have to assume you are. There is no way that bike is 8.5 lb. Kilos perhaps. The Shimano parts have to weigh 5 lb alone. I like this, Very funny!

7 pages and still no pics of each of the OPs bikes on a scale!?

Good troll, sir!

Yeah, I probably should have added something like this:
That bike weighs at least twice the stated amount...

First, glad you caught the tongue in cheek on price per pound. Luckily, bikes are not farm raised salmon.

Chiming in on the auto market, it is a very bad comparison. It was very well publicized that American auto manufacturers sell cars at cost or a loss (especially with deep incentives), and make all of their money financing automobiles. GMAC is huge in car financing, as well as funding industrial equipment leasing. GM makes cars so that they have something to finance.

Japanese auto manufacturers do the same, but to a much lesser extent, with smaller finance arms and more real margin in their sales.

Also, volume on high end bike components is very small compared to auto manufacture, and auto's depend on a high percentage of stampings and injection molded product. Bike parts are typically forgings that are machined, with comparatively higher labor impact.

Exactly people always bring up that BS. Well I don't need a light bike I just need to loose weight. Well once your already looking like your starving to death, and you can count your ribs in the mirror, there is only one thing left to do.

Work some more on your power?

It gets a lot more expensive.

Never will as they exist pnly under the untermenchen troll's bridge.