The groups I ride with are small so I've never actually encountered this situation but I have heard that it goes on without incident in cities like Montreal and Toronto.

Personally, I wouldn't be interested in sitting in on one of these type of rides. The larger rides I've been on tend to break up and you end up with a smaller group of 20-30 riders at most. If you think of the group as a large vehicle (like a long tractor trailer) it makes more sense. Large vehicles can legally enter an intersection while still green and still be in the intersection when the light goes red. Cars don't seem to crash into semis very often, not sure why they would crash into a group of brightly colored cyclists.

I don't think it's ridiculous to have to wait for a slow moving large vehicle and I don't find it ridiculous that one might have to wait a few seconds for a group of cyclists to clear an intersection. I know it's unlikely to happen but drivers need to step back and learn to relax a little while driving and not freak out over every event that might delay their travel by 5 seconds.

Regarding whether I would do it in front of a police officer, it would depend on convention. I've heard it's accepted in Montreal so in that case I would do it. I don't think there is a safety issue and I also don't think a policeman would be interested or able to pull over 50 cyclists. Myself, I routinely roll through stop signs on my own or in a group provided it's clear and safe. I apply a common sense test to the rules of the road for cyclists. I think most cyclists and drivers do this as well.

Just because you've got worse videos of the way you ride, doesn't mean they are riding the way they should be.

I don't know how the law works in Canada, but here in the States you're only legally allowed to enter any intersection if you can clear it before the light changes. That's the whole point of the yellow light. It means you're not supposed to enter the intersection, but if you're there you have time to get out before the light changes. If there's a traffic backup in the intersection, you're not allowed to enter it unless you can clear it. Basic driver's ed 101 stuff here. Not many people (drivers, cyclists, peds) act like they know it, but it is the law, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the law in Canada too. So no, you don't get to stay blocking an intersection just because you entered it when the light was green.

The law is the same here. It's still possible for a large vehicle to enter an intersection while it's green and leave it while red. There is no minimum speed limit for vehicles so if a large truck is moving slowly it can take a while to leave the intersection. Motorists don't go crazy and foam at the mouth if a large vehicle slows them down a few seconds why should they for a group of cyclists?

Your argument seems to based on, why should we inconvenience ourselves when we can inconvenience them instead..brilliant?

No his argument is that motorist's get inconvenienced by other slow moving vehicles, but do not foam at the mouth and attempt to run them off the road or worse...

So, you think it's OK for cars to keep crossing after the light changes to red?

Even though the law says it's not? Sure it's possible for this to happen, doesn't mean that a cop wouldn't be justified in ticketing the truck driver if he so chose.

I thought my post was clear. I said large vehicles like tractor trailers. I didn't say anything about cars. I also said you could consider a group of cyclists to be analogous in it's behaviour to a large truck.

I understand that technically it's not legal. I'm just providing an alternative viewpoint that might allow someone to get through their day without foaming at the mouth and running down a bunch of cyclists in spandex who, unlike motorists, don't obey every law to the letter.

Yes, I suppose that's what I'm saying. It's hard for me to fathom why a 5 second inconvenience would bother anyone.

On Saturday they shut down one of two bridges, one half of a divided highway and a number of roads just so a bunch of middle aged guys and gals in spandex could ride from Vancouver to Whistler. The city was significantly inconvenienced for a few hours but no one complained. Happens all the time with runs as well.

I've noticed a lot of 5-9 second comments here, I can tell you for a fact that is not the common hold up for a group that large to cross an intersection, and when they blow the next light.. and the next.. you get the idea here? Apply reality to it, and you might see why people with short fuses make rash decisions and end up ramming cyclists with their cars... not that there's any excuse for that in the slightest bit.

A group of cyclists is exactly a group of vehicles (it's not "analogous").

The default/basic "viewpoint" is that drivers of vehicles should not drive in groups if doing so causes them to do illegal things.

The cyclists are choosing to ride in a group.

This is silly. You can't really argue that cyclists should be allowed to break the law just because someone, somewhere, is breaking the law. ("I can drive at 100mph because someone else is getting away with murder"!)

You aren't really being honest by saying a 100 rider group causes a "5 second inconvenience".

Not true in California.

It's a question of priorities. Does it upset you when 95% of the people on the freeway are constantly breaking the law? Do you write your congressman asking for tougher enforcement of the existing laws? Or do you have better things to do?


Actually, I didn't see any vehicles being delayed in the video posted earlier. What's the longest you've ever been delayed by a nasty group of cyclists? Did you want to mow them all down?

A surprising number of angry men on this forum.

Really? You don't have to clear the intersection before the red to avoid a ticket? You sure about that?

There is no single traffic law "here in the States." Each state has its own vehicle code and though they are similar there are significant differences in the details. Your statement above does not reflect the traffic code in California or in most of the states in which I've lived (haven't checked Mass.).

The California Vehicle Code prohibits entering an intersection on a red light, but there's no requirement to clear the intersection before it turns red. There is a prohibition against entering an intersection when congested traffic would prevent you from exiting it - i.e. to prevent a gridlock situation, but if traffic is flowing smoothly you can legally enter the intersection just before the light turns red. Those who then get a green light are required to wait for any traffic that entered the intersection legally to clear it before proceeding.

Technically I'm sure the riders in both the Florida ride and the one in Toronto are violating the local codes on red lights since many of the riders are entering intersections after the light changes to red. OTOH, these are regular rides and I'm sure the local authorities are well aware of them and have apparently decided not to enforce the letter of the red light law - probably because they don't see it as a safety problem. I know in some towns the police have met with cycling clubs and indicated that they would not issue either red light or stop sign citations as long as the lead riders obey the signals/signs and the rest follow as a single group.

Looks guys, these big rides, like the Doral ride, the Donut ride in Toronto, the River Ride in Sacramento and many many others go on weekly and have been going on for years. If motorist's have so much of an issue with them then they should call the police and complain. It's not like you can't predict when the group will come by. Then the police can be there with tickets in hand. For some reason this doesn't seem to happen, since these rides continue to occur.

My guess is they aren't as big of a problem as everyone here is making them out to be...

Personally I will continue to ride in groups, obey some rules, break some others. I will ride defensively and protect myself because I've learned that no matter what I do, good or bad, all it takes is one idiot and I'm not going to get my panties in a knot since I know that idiot will be there even if we followed every single rule that they think we should...

^ This... While technically illegal, the riding shown in the video is probably safer than the legal alternatives.

If anybody is going crazy from being inconvenienced by these rides, they must really blow their top from the vastly greater number of illegal doosh moves by motor vehicle drivers! Especially all those idiots who clog up the road when they're trying to get to work on time...

I was told that by a Riverside County Deputy. I browsed through the vehicle code but couldn't confirm it. I did a google search and came up with this. https://articles.latimes.com/1995-08-...1_yellow-light

I know. Probably they also ride by themselves because no group wants anyone that grumpy with them

it is not grumpy for someone to tell you that this kind of behavior pisses off drivers:

maybe i should just roll my car through the middle of an intersection some time. if anyone gets mad, i will just label them as grumpy and say they don't have friends.

and btw, several group rides in orange county have been the targets of ticket operations at stop signs and red lights for similar offenses. but, i don't think those cops were enforcing the traffic laws. i think they were just being grumpy.

You oddly think that a group of vehicles is a single vehicle. That other people break other laws doesn't make that so.

Clearly, you've never ridden in groups of any appreciable size. A 100 cycle group isn't going through red lights in "5 seconds".



There's a surprising number of people on this forum that use specious logic to justify selfish actions.

Just picture a gap developing due to a missed shift or new rider and a motorist, not seeing the tardy cyclist and not having been educated in the law enforcement-approved motor vehicle code violation enters the intersection and strikes the cyclist (or cyclists). I wouldn't want to be the ride organizer/leader who may be guilty of negligent behavior.

Almost all cyclists in my experience take some liberty with respect to stop signs except in those communities where ticketing cyclists for failing to come to a full stop has taken on religious zeal, but the three non-racing clubs to which I belong would never condone the behavior described; it gives cyclists a bad reputation and, yes, exposes the club and its insurer civil liability for the club.

In Central Park in Manhattan, cops have been ticketing cyclists for various offenses (running red lights, speeding, not yielding to pedestrians) b/c some in the park for years have been treating the 6 mile loops as their personal race course. Again, if you've ridden in the park, you'll realize that they represent a very small minority, but everyone's being ticketed and inconvenienced (and made poorer) because of the commnunity backlash.

Just across the George Washington Bridge in Fort Lee, NJ where hundreds (if not thousands) of NYC cyclists go every weekend, the police there have also started a ticketing campaign apparently because somebody saw cyclists salmoning and doing other dangerous and inconsiderate things on their roads and it sparked complaints. Again, many innocent folks got ticketed.

Few who violate traffic laws and display other inconsiderate behavior toward motorists affect the rest of us who try to enjoy this sport as safely as possible.

Sounds exactly what the cops do typically on long weekends when they target speeding motorists, seat belts, aggressive driving, etc...

What's your point??

Face it guys, the roads will never be totally safe since we are on bikes and they are in cars. Ride your bikes in a safe and predictable manner and worry about you, not the other guy.