If only you had a place that you could read things like user experiences about things you might possibly buy...

...oh wait...

If only there were companies who could be trusted to provide good QC so that the item you get is the same as the one you've read about...

...oh wait...

So these companies just decided one day to tell their customers that they were overcharging them by several hundred per cent? That's pretty bizarre.

Well considering the bike has been around for 150+ years, who are the real thieves???

https://weightweenies.starbike.com/fo...art=30#p658033

Spencer @ Ritte told people on WW that the pedal force and the ritte bosberg were made by the same designer same factory, different bikes early on. Now they're the same bike, same mold, same factory. He says so openly, and while I wouldn't pay that much for one of their frames, I respect the guy for being open about it.

Well that's just sad. I don't think I'll be buying any Ritte stuff.

I'm about to place an order with a US company that does open mold frames from Taiwan. Can't wait! I think with them you pay a little more than going direct but they handle all the details, insurance, inspection, etc.

Alright. Jesus. Rather than being doubting, I suggest some of you learn to use Google.

Owner of Onix saying that the Azzuro (sorry not the Black RH) is an open mold FM001 (bottom of the page).

Owner of Ritte admitting that his frame is also sold as the Pedal Force. (Just noticed this was posted above).

If you email John Neugent, he'll tell you his FC500 frame is a Trigon RQC-29.

Etc.

Look around, these guys are fairly open about where they get their stuff from. Like the poster above, I think it speaks well of them to be transparent. Also, look for some of the pictures of factory tours of the places these frames are made. You'll see Ridley, Fondreist, Masi, Trek, Cannondale, Specialized etc boxes all over the place. Even frames marked as "Made in Taiwan" are often manufactured by OEMs in China. This is legal and well documented.

What a ridiculous post. Why do I have to do the research for other's assertions? Why am I going around googling companies I have no interest in doing business with?

Jesus is right.

I have an FM098 frame from DengFu sitting in an extra room here that I plan to slowly build up over the winter. The frame looks great but I can't give a full review till next sumner. The frame, fork, headset, seatpost, two seatpost collars, two bottle cages, carbon handlebars, 3 derailleur hangers, two colour custom paint and shipping to Canada was just over $700. It's not a complete knock-off but it does have a similar profile to the Venge.

Regardless of whether or not you plan to do business with these companies, you and a couple of other people were essentially accusing me of making stuff up, which I didn't appreciate.

Overall it's probably worthwhile to understand who's making the bikes and how they're being sold. This is especially true these days. Making carbon frames is capital intensive but (due to cheap Chinese labor) has low marginal costs. Because of these constraints, there's a natural tendancy to reuse designs, pump up volume in particular molds and commoditize frames. Often, frame sellers use marketing jargon and paint to hide the commoditization.

^and often times, manufacturers(meaning the frame building house, not the company name on the product) use different lay up techniques (some higher some lower), different quality materials (mat and resin), and have some 2nds that they sell on the secondary/direct market---all while claiming "made in the same factory as *insert expensive frame".

just because a frame is made in the same location as a cannondale/trek/whatever, doesn't mean it is the same quality as the cannondale/trek/whatever.

The scary part about a carbon product is the only way to know that it is well made is to xray it or cut it in pieces and see. Other than that, you are riding on hope and prayers--and this is regardless of the price or name on the product. So you have to ask yourself--do I trust my health to a company that is actively selling in my area and has the risk of liability associated with that transaction, or am I comfortable buying a product from an untouchable overseas company.

each person has to make that call for themselves based on their risk/comfort level and their health/dental/life/disability insurance policies.

yup, +1.

shame too. i had originally seen one (hot or not???) on the 41 and was impressed.

avoid it next time by providing evidence of your claim...and what a stupid move on their part (the frame peddlers).

I'm failing to see the 'revelation' in the Ritte post. Did he actually say something that you didn't know?

Sums it up.

For the record trigon has been moving around for a while now.

I know it was but it has a sticker saying otherwise......

If it's a knock off like those fake Bonty bottle cages in the Bay, then no. If it's the plant's original design then sure.

The majority of the spanish stuff is made in asia and painted, finished in spain, only because of that their products have a sticker saying made in spain. Italy is the same situation i believe.

Yep, that's about it. Good post.

I have 3, a pinerello-ish bike , and 2 open molds. Only one of the open mold bikes is currently built up. It rides just fine, is pretty light weight, not the stiffist.
I have a mc-015 also from miricle trade, I have the one with the integrated seat post. Well the seat mast topper bolt cracked from over tightening. It was munufactured to large and wouldnt hold it position. So I added a shim. then the seat started slipping. At about this time I discovered that the rear drop out was very crooked. So crooked in fact that the derailuer pivot bolt sits at an angle, so that when it swings if you go from large to small ring. the rear derailuer ends up between gears. Simply put as the derailuer goes back and forth it moves in and out also. Miracle trade kept me on the hook with promises of service and parts shipment that never arrived. As soon as the time expired on the paypal buyers protection, they stopped answering my emails.
The Pinerello thats not a Pinerello is a good frame. Its a bit heavy, very stiff, nice ride, comfortable. but it also has a cockeyed rear drop out. not as bad as the miracle trade bike but enough to be annoying. I can adjust the pocket for the hanger to fix it but I have moved on to other bike frames for now.
In short, I probably wouldnt do it again. Its to much a roll of the dice.

Most of them will be good quality but I am sure there are junk products made as well it all depends on the factory and there standards.

I ordered some carboChinesese mountain bike rims and had them built up this spring. I have beat the snot out of them for around 1200 miles this summer. A mix of all mountain and cross country riding with just about anything you can think of. They have been the best wheels I have ever owned and are still true to this day. Nothing takes more abuse than mountain bike rims and this does show that cheap Chinese carbon fiber can be very high quality.

meh. I dont think the risk is as high as all that. Its a business to them. How many frames would they sell if there was any kind of failure rate? The Chinese manufacturers know that. They arent going to cut their own throats by cutting corners enough that the frames fail.
When I looked into buying my frames there was only one reported failure of a Chinese frame. A fork steerer tube broke at the crown. The guy admitted to sanding it to get the crown race on. That is from over a year ago. I dont know of anything since then.
But you can go to busted carbon .com and see all the broken "non" chinese frames you can stomach. So whos to say?