Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

What exactly is BB30?

Old 02-04-13, 05:58 AM
  #151  
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Originally Posted by rufvelo View Post
Again, since you've jumped on several BFers here in your enthusiasm to highlight their lack of knowledge and experience while in no subtle a manner suggest your own superiority with carbon fiber, what CF products have you personally designed and manufactured?
You seem to miss the point repeatedly. Just like you refuse to divulge your knowledge about carbon fiber manufacture because I compare you to eric...which again I maintain is a fair comparison because you have only contributed derision and not a scintilla of substance to this thread, similarly, I will not engage you with my background. In fact, my background has never been divulged here and won't be. What separates you and me however and this is a big difference...I am all about substance and getting to the truth. Your and my background is irrelevant. Re-read this entire thread which has centered on BB30/PF30 technology. I am the primary contributor of technical information. Bob also made several good points as he always does...and Roadwarrior..and many others. But not you or eric. You...and I put you with eric, have contributed NOTHING but hate in this thread. That is the point. You are haters and you have to live with that and you do every long day.

I will further say I am far from an expert in carbon fiber. Even though I know a lot about strength of materials and design, I am in fact more of a novice when it comes to carbon molding technolgy...and why I posted my thesis of how frames are molded for others to embellish.
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Old 02-04-13, 06:10 AM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by rebel1916 View Post
Just a few quick points. Defiling the 41 is difficult if not impossible. Nobody really cares about how CF frames are made, they only care if they work. And finally, you know what they say about arguing on the interwebs. No matter how many SAT words you throw in, it still holds true.
I do. Call it technical curiosity. I think, more accurately, many don't know how carbon fiber frames are made because of lack of first hand experience. I would like to learn a lot more about it. You are probably right, the 41 isn't probably the best place to find out as you suggest.
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Old 02-05-13, 07:21 AM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
...NOTHING...
That's what I thought, for pages and pages of babbling, NOTHING there.
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Old 02-05-13, 11:48 AM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
Once you realize that BB30 was driven by the designers and not the manufacturers it makes more sense. BB30 was not conceived because of some manufacturing advantage, it was conceived because of a perceived performance advantage. The designers designed and then the frame makers had to figure out how to make it and tool up for that.

Anyone who has ever worked in any kind of manufacturing knows about this tension between the design side and the manufacturing side of a product. The same tension exists between architects and engineers, for example; Just because you can dream it up does mean it can be built.

This is where we sit with our OE customers. We try to manage design expectations and coax manufacturers until we find that balance the leads to a product that makes it to market. Fun stuff but my hair is graying far too quickly.
I dunno. With bicycles (at least mass-produced ones) I'd imagine that the designer works for the manufacturer...or the company that has them manufactured. In most manufacturing ventures, there is a strict limit as to how any design feature affects the coist of production- i.e. things like: Cost of retooling vs. money saved by using a cheaper process; perceived benefits of a new configuration vs. added cost; possible detriments vs. lowered costs, etc.

Somehow, I don't see bicycle designers sitting around saying "Gee, these old bottom brackets just aren't working! They're breaking and creating significant drag...we just need to do something about them!". I could go either way on BB30s- I mean, good or bad, they seem easy enough to deal with....but I just don't see them as having been designed to solve a problem or fill a need; which leads me to believe that they exist simply to make manufacturing easier/cheaper- which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Despite some trying, no one on this thread has convinced me that pressing a couple of modular bearings into a race is somehow not vastly cheaper to accomplish, than machining precision-aligned threads, and screwing-in and adjusting a traditional BB. Whether one likes, hates or is indifferent toward BB30, it would be hard to deny that their use requires less skill and time on an assembly line. That is not of itself a bad thing...but let's be realistic about it.

Even post-manufacturer- I know if I were a bike mechanic and had a pile of bikes in the shop needing bottom bracket work, I'd certainly prefer that they all be of the press-in, press-out variety, just for the time it would save me. Again, not a bad thing, as long as such can be made to perform as well and trouble-free as what it replaced- and given the variety of opinion on that subject, I'll likely never truly know until and unless I ever own a bike with BB30 (And while I wouldn't specifically seek-out a bike with BB30- I wouldn't necessarily avoid it, either...unless perhaps I was spending uber bucks on something I wanted to be "perfect"....but I don't buy those kinds of bikes, anyway- so I guess the point is kind of moot...)
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Old 02-05-13, 05:26 PM
  #155  
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^^^ in theory if both the design group and manufacturing group are employed by the same company then this would be the case but this is NOT how the bicycle industry works since most modern brands are design and R&D companies who then find a Taiwanese factory to make what they have designed.

You just need to look at who has driven the different specs to see that it is a design feature and not driven from the factory floor; Cannondale started with BB30. They were working in alloy so casting, machining and welding costs would be unaffected by the change (aside from tooling costs) but it allowed them to continue on the oversized tubing path. BB86/92 is driven by SHIMANO, a component manufacturer. BBRight is Cervelo. They don't manufacture anything, are heavily driven by design and have had other design driven frame features in the past proven problematic in terms of compatibility.

Pressfit30 is FSA, non? Another component maker. Specialized has their own BB spec (sort of) and is another design company. Trek is probably the only company who actually makes some of their frames that has introduced a spec that deviates from BSA .

I've worked in the bicycle industry since the mid 80's and I can assure you that what I have been saying has been told to me by several different frame manufacturers here in Taiwan. I also said that I wasn't given enough specifics to present concrete facts as to why this is the case but that I would after a series of factory visits I have scheduled in a few weeks.

Unless you are very, very familiar with carbon manufacturing methods it is impossible to speculate which process is more cost effective and why. Since you asked the question in the first place this clearly is not the case.

As for the shop floor, bike mechanics aren't even part of the manufacturing food chain. Having run several shops over the years I assure you that nothing is easier to service than BSA. I can swap out a BSA BB in less than 5 minutes and that includes removing and reinstalling the crank and the better part of a cup of coffee. Dealing with press in anything is a PITA, time consuming and has a much, much greater propensity for error.

You can choose to believe whatever you want to. Personally all the different specs give me a headache and I hope the industry will settle into two or three in a few years but in the meantime we'll continue to sell the various adapters needed to solve all the compatibility issues that are currently frustrating end users like yourself.
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Old 02-05-13, 08:04 PM
  #156  
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Looks like Vroomen.White.Design are allowing anyone to use the BBright standard as long as you fill out some information first. Is Cervelo the only company using it in their frames? Or does anyone know of any other companies getting on board?
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Old 02-06-13, 06:53 AM
  #157  
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^^^my guess is they're pushing their design to get backing from a component manufacturer to keep it relevant.
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Old 02-06-13, 08:39 AM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post

As for the shop floor, bike mechanics aren't even part of the manufacturing food chain. .
I know that.... I was just using the scenario to illustrate that BB30 should be faster to deal with; especially in quantity. My experience is with machinery, rather than bikes; and I can tell you, that while I prefer the benefits of mechanically-secured bearings...for speed, nothing beats bearings that you can just knock out with a piece of wood and a hammer, and tap back in. (Of course, with such [or even with ones that require actual pressing with a press] there is always that sinking feeling afterwards, as you wonder if indeed they are seated perfectly and will stay that way over time; and how durable that set-up will be...hence my reservations about BB30 and the like)

I think the one thing we should all be able to agree on, is that it royally sucks, that there are SO many different BB standards out there! All this is doing, is ensuring compatibility complications, and guaranteeing that our ability to ride old bikes in the future will be greatly limited, as many of these different BB's will no-doubt become obsolete quickly, and it will be impossible to get compatible parts for them. (Of course, the fact that the majority of bikes being made today are carbon, pretty much guarantees that the only classic bikes around 20 years from now, will be the same classic bikes that are around today- the old aluminum, steel and titanium ones....)

I'm sure that your upcoming factory tours will be fascinating! Are you familiar with the manufacturing prcocesses for metal bikes with threaded BB's, though? (Otherwise, how would you know if carbon with press-in bearings is or isn't xheaper/less time-consuming/etc.?)- Either way though, I'm sure youi will learn a lot...and I hope you will share that experience with u.
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Old 02-06-13, 10:45 AM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by DayGloDago View Post
I think the one thing we should all be able to agree on, is that it royally sucks, that there are SO many different BB standards out there! All this is doing, is ensuring compatibility complications, and guaranteeing that our ability to ride old bikes in the future will be greatly limited, as many of these different BB's will no-doubt become obsolete quickly, and it will be impossible to get compatible parts for them.
At the end of the day, this is my concern as well. I'm all for progress (the bikes any of us on BF ride are much-evolved from the very first bikes), but I'd hate to get a nice new bike and be unable to use it after a couple of years because nobody wants to support a particular part.
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Old 02-06-13, 01:41 PM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by DayGloDago;
Are you familiar with the manufacturing prcocesses for metal bikes with threaded BB's, though?
Yes. This is where I started in the industry; investment cast lugs and jigs were the order of the day.
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Old 02-06-13, 04:44 PM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
Yes. This is where I started in the industry; investment cast lugs and jigs were the order of the day.
Excellent! Then you will no doubt truly have the best perspective on the subject, after your tours. It will be very interesting to hear what you have to say.

Re: Compatibility issues: Yes, that is why I question the motivation of many of the designers of the new BBs. I mean, people were getting tens of thousands of miles out of the old threaded BBs for decades- why try and change something that works, in the supposed name of saving a minute amount of weight, which would not matter to the average cyclist/amateur racer? It's kind of like the situation with cars, between the purely mechanical days...and today's OBD II-compliant vehicles. From the mid 80's-mid 90's, it was a nightmare of different manufacturers all having different computer diagnostic systems, and it was just a world of confusion, until finally after a decade of boondoggles, they finally all adopted OBD II. Just as it's almost impossible to find someone who can rebuild and tune a Quadrajet carburetor [properly] anymore.

With the BBs, I see it as a case of people trying to solve a problem that didn't exist...and thus they ended up creating problems. So I have to wonder, for what reason would they do that?
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Old 02-11-13, 09:17 AM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by DayGloDago View Post
...With the BBs, I see it as a case of people trying to solve a problem that didn't exist...and thus they ended up creating problems. So I have to wonder, for what reason would they do that?
If I understand the question correctly, and please correct me if I misunderstood it, I will bravely venture with an answer. With all due respect, and I am in no way an expert in anything at all but simply a student reading and learning along the way, I believe someone already said in this thread (and in some other threads in BF), that the primary reason why relatively recent BB designs with wider inner diameters and/or wider shell widths came to be is to improve stiffness of carbon fiber frames around the all important BB area. There was generally no problem at all with the existing BB designs per se before then.
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Old 02-11-13, 10:49 AM
  #163  
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Some of the new higher end cannondales are coming with PF30 BBs. Maybe a sign of things to come. If one had a BB30 is it possible to use PF30 bearings? As I understand it, a BB30 crank and PF30 crank are the same and only the bearings different. Or is the PF30 shell also different? I know about the FSA universal crank/bearings but was just wondering about "upgrading" a BB30 to PF30.
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Old 02-11-13, 10:56 AM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by jaltone View Post
If I understand the question correctly, and please correct me if I misunderstood it, I will bravely venture with an answer. With all due respect, and I am in no way an expert in anything at all but simply a student reading and learning along the way, I believe someone already said in this thread (and in some other threads in BF), that the primary reason why relatively recent BB designs with wider inner diameters and/or wider shell widths came to be is to improve stiffness of carbon fiber frames around the all important BB area. There was generally no problem at all with the existing BB designs per se before then.
Ah, O-K. That would make sense- except perhaps for one thing: If my understanding is correct, I believe that Gary Klein was the first to implement a press-fit BB30-ish BB....on his aluminum bikes. (Although your point could still be valid- as Klein bikes are noted for their stiffness- so maybe he was indeed trying to stiffen the BB area that way?).

Ironically...I just bought a Klein....but one made after Gary had abandoned the press-fit BB and returned to 68mm English threaded..... [The current state of old Kleins which do have the press-fits are likely to be a harbinger of what will be the fate of today's bikes, years from now, which have BB30.... everyone avoids them like the plague!]
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Old 02-11-13, 01:24 PM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by bikerjp View Post
Some of the new higher end cannondales are coming with PF30 BBs. Maybe a sign of things to come. If one had a BB30 is it possible to use PF30 bearings? As I understand it, a BB30 crank and PF30 crank are the same and only the bearings different. Or is the PF30 shell also different? I know about the FSA universal crank/bearings but was just wondering about "upgrading" a BB30 to PF30.
Bearings are the same for both BB30 and PF30. The '30' reference shared by both is the bearing I.D.
In the case of carbon fiber...the 'shell' of threaded BB, BB30 and PF30 can be 'identical' It is the ID of the shell that is different for each. For metal bikes, like steel, Ti and Al, shell diameter is normally different. This is because metal isn't molded like carbon...carbon promoting a ball shaped shell for all types of BB.
I covered all of this earlier in the thread including pictures.
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Old 02-11-13, 01:26 PM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by DayGloDago View Post
Ah, O-K. That would make sense- except perhaps for one thing: If my understanding is correct, I believe that Gary Klein was the first to implement a press-fit BB30-ish BB....on his aluminum bikes. (Although your point could still be valid- as Klein bikes are noted for their stiffness- so maybe he was indeed trying to stiffen the BB area that way?).

Ironically...I just bought a Klein....but one made after Gary had abandoned the press-fit BB and returned to 68mm English threaded..... [The current state of old Kleins which do have the press-fits are likely to be a harbinger of what will be the fate of today's bikes, years from now, which have BB30.... everyone avoids them like the plague!]
Not everybody is avoiding BB30 like the plague.
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Old 02-11-13, 02:11 PM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Not everybody is avoiding BB30 like the plague.
No, I meant that people avoid the older Kleins with the proprietary BB30 predecessor like the plague. (They were problematic and hard to service)

Thinking about what Jaltone said, above, re: BB30 being invented as a way to ensure more heft in carbon frames: Why couldn't they have just made a threaded BB to the same dimensions? It's not like going from threaded to press-in had anything to do with the dimensions that one could specify.
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Old 02-11-13, 03:40 PM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by DayGloDago View Post
No, I meant that people avoid the older Kleins with the proprietary BB30 predecessor like the plague. (They were problematic and hard to service)

Thinking about what Jaltone said, above, re: BB30 being invented as a way to ensure more heft in carbon frames: Why couldn't they have just made a threaded BB to the same dimensions? It's not like going from threaded to press-in had anything to do with the dimensions that one could specify.
I don't mean to turn this thread into a SAT...but it is in a sense. Most of the things you have asked and mused about have been addressed in this thread. Sometimes repeatedly...including your last question. The problem is integrating all the concepts discussed...maybe asking too much. BB30...again...isn't just about being able to grow the size of the BB to increase attachment strength of chainstays, seat tube and down tube for greater frame lateral stiffness. Again...BB30 came into being to create a lower weight crank...which is stiffer due to shorter crank spindle and with smaller Q-factor due to moving the bearings back inside the BB shell. As to whether any or all these things matters to the average cyclist...you will have to decide. Each of us is different...some race and others meander...some guys count grams and some can sprint to 40mph and appreciate the stiffness and energy transfter.

Here is a basic question for you...and let's see if you understand the concept. Why would a BB30 crank be lighter than an external bearing crank if a BB30 spindle is larger in diameter?

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Old 02-11-13, 04:20 PM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
I don't mean to turn this thread into a SAT...but it is in a sense. Most of the things you have asked and mused about have been addressed in this thread. Sometimes repeatedly...including your last question. The problem is integrating all the concepts discussed...maybe asking too much. BB30...again...isn't just about being able to grow the size of the BB to increase attachment strength of chainstays, seat tube and down tube for greater frame lateral stiffness. Again...BB30 came into being to create a lower weight crank...which is stiffer due to shorter crank spindle and with smaller Q-factor due to moving the bearings back inside the BB shell. As to whether any or all these things matters to the average cyclist...you will have to decide. Each of us is different...some race and others meander...some guys count grams and some can sprint to 40mph and appreciate the stiffness and energy transfter.

Here is a basic question for you...and let's see if you understand the concept. Why would a BB30 crank be lighter than an external bearing crank if a BB30 spindle is larger in diameter?
Fewer parts? [Admittedly, I'm not at all familiar with even standard BBs- I've only ever taken one apart...and that was many years ago, on a department-store bike]

As for my questions being answered- I would not say that the answers proposed thus far are authoritative; If they were- nay, indeed could be; there wouldn't be so much controversy on this subject; everyone would be agreeing; and this thread wouldn't be so long. No?

FWIW, I do appreciate a stiff bike- which is why I have just purchased the aforementioned Klein. [I'm a 190 lb. rider in a hilly locale, and I'm getting where I can put out some decent power.... Never cared for riding a noodle.]
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Old 02-11-13, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by DayGloDago View Post
Fewer parts? [Admittedly, I'm not at all familiar with even standard BBs- I've only ever taken one apart...and that was many years ago, on a department-store bike]

As for my questions being answered- I would not say that the answers proposed thus far are authoritative; If they were- nay, indeed could be; there wouldn't be so much controversy on this subject; everyone would be agreeing; and this thread wouldn't be so long. No?

FWIW, I do appreciate a stiff bike- which is why I have just purchased the aforementioned Klein. [I'm a 190 lb. rider in a hilly locale, and I'm getting where I can put out some decent power.... Never cared for riding a noodle.]
The only controversy...exists in the minds of the uniformed...which you sir are a self admitted card carrying member.
I will let you argue with your shadow...
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Old 02-11-13, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
The only controversy...exists in the minds of the uniformed...which you sir are a self admitted card carrying member.
I will let you argue with your shadow...
So then, everyone's in agreement but me? OOOooooo-K........
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Old 02-11-13, 05:03 PM
  #172  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
The only controversy...exists in the minds of the uniformed...which you sir are a self admitted card carrying member.
I will let you argue with your shadow...
Originally Posted by DayGloDago View Post
So then, everyone's in agreement but me? OOOooooo-K........
I'm rubber and you're glue and whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you
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Old 03-05-13, 09:47 PM
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As promised...

I have spoken with two frame vendors in the last few days and they both gave me the same answer. BSA is cheaper and easier to do than either BB30 or PF30.

With a BSA frame the shell is bonded into the frame and then the threads are cut. If the alignment is off just a wee bit it doesn't matter because the cutting tools will take care of that pdq.

With BB30 the alignment must be spot on which means set up time is longer and failure rates are higher which slows down production and increases costs.

Conspiracy debunked.
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Old 03-05-13, 10:05 PM
  #174  
rebel1916
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
As promised...

I have spoken with two frame vendors in the last few days and they both gave me the same answer. BSA is cheaper and easier to do than either BB30 or PF30.

With a BSA frame the shell is bonded into the frame and then the threads are cut. If the alignment is off just a wee bit it doesn't matter because the cutting tools will take care of that pdq.

With BB30 the alignment must be spot on which means set up time is longer and failure rates are higher which slows down production and increases costs.

Conspiracy debunked.
Whatever maaaaaaan, you're just a tool of big bottom bracket
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Old 03-05-13, 10:15 PM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by rebel1916 View Post
Whatever maaaaaaan, you're just a tool of big bottom bracket
Tool maybe, but not of BIG BB.

I am trying to keep you down, though. Do you feel kept down? I try pretty hard but it's so difficult to really know how well with repression, you know?
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