Misconceptions abound...lol. Even among pro mechanics I have worked with. Best practice? narrow wood dowel and small ballpeen hammer. Actually hammer type isn't particularly relevant but a steel hammer is better than a rubber hammer. Why? I will give you an analogy. Don't try to pull the table cloth off of a table with dishes on top by going slow. Dull press is much more invasive than brisk, stacato force. A brisk tap with a hammer on wood dowel will easily and quickly dislodge bearings loctited into respective bores. Speed trumps force. Why a wood dowel? Wood won't scratch the bores are harm bearings if intent is to reuse them. The thing about BB30...unlike other BB's...you don't remove bearings until you replace them. Both sides of the bearings can be accessed on the bike with fresh grease. When the bearings are spent, knock them out. Very simple. In fact it doesn't get much easier.

Why do BB30's creak? Bad set up:
1. bearings aren't seated properly.
2. loctite isn't used...or bearing outer races were contaminated with grease...or bores were. At least use alcohol...adhesion promoter is better and generally spec'ed.
3. Biggest error? Crank axial preload is inadequate. Why does this matter? Because if the bearing inner race doesn't have a light preload, the bearing balls will rattle in races...and moreover bearings will tend to lose their seat over time with axial play.

Its all about attention to detail which takes very little efffort. BB30 is simple to set up and no reason the average guy can't service his own bike.

Thanks, Nagrom. You'll have to forgive my ignorance, I honestly wouldn't know how much force that is. I guess my question really is, doing this to carbon framed bikes is within the acceptable limits of the carbon frame? Is there a large margin of error for the strength of the strike, or even the angle of the strike relatively to the axis of the bottom bracket, that the chance of harming the carbon frame is negligible? I can imagine a bike mechanic near the end of the work day being too tired to be so focused mentally.

Edit: Nagrom, no need to answer the above questions. Campag4life's post #126 at https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post15217471 answered my questions very well. Thanks very much for indulging my questions, Campag4life. I've learned a lot from your educational posts.

Merlin said it well. Marketing sometimes gets a bad rap. Problem is...the average guy can't differentiate marketing from reality. There have been very few steps backward in the evolution of the road bike in the past 20 years...or automobile...or airplane...or motorcycle...although Boeing is struggling right now.
Bikes today are far superior to what they were a few years ago. I am old enough to remember. A BB is only one aspect of the bike. It is the collection of improvements that yield the final result. Weight reduction alone has been huge throughout the bike...not to mention lateral stiffness and vertical compliance...a collection of design improvements.

Once you realize that BB30 was driven by the designers and not the manufacturers it makes more sense. BB30 was not conceived because of some manufacturing advantage, it was conceived because of a perceived performance advantage. The designers designed and then the frame makers had to figure out how to make it and tool up for that.

Anyone who has ever worked in any kind of manufacturing knows about this tension between the design side and the manufacturing side of a product. The same tension exists between architects and engineers, for example; Just because you can dream it up does mean it can be built.

This is where we sit with our OE customers. We try to manage design expectations and coax manufacturers until we find that balance the leads to a product that makes it to market. Fun stuff but my hair is graying far too quickly.

You could probably whack any non weight weenie carbon frames with a hammer no problem. Check this out.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/santa-c...-test-lab.html

There is usually an easy test for me for a design engineer: if they understand the difference between runout and concentricity. I know what I am working with in the first few minutes, usually.

Usually the carbon is pre-preg. Or the layers have epoxy applied by hand. I've never seen production that injects epoxy. It would be difficult to get full coverage that way, and you'd end up with too much epoxy in some places and not enough in others.

It's clear from your posts that you don't know what you're talking about.

popcorn.

Wow, that last part where they were whacking the carbon frame into cement is something. I don't own any carbon fiber bikes, so I don't know. But after seeing that video I can see that it can stand up to some really high forces.

Well then...this is your opportunity to show how smart you are since you have contributed virtually nothing to this thread which is telling how much you know...lol.

If you have it in you, why don't you craft an overview of carbon frame manufacuture for monocoque frames including:

- No. of pieces to the mold...aka grafting...common rear triangle tooling...attached to diverse and separately molded top/head/downtube combination... which determine frame sizes.

- Explanation of carbon lay up and how epoxy is applied based upon above combined tooling.

- Vacuum bagging and how it is enabled if relevant.

I had a pretty good idea how carbon parts and complete monocoque were developed (well maybe from F1)... until this thread...

^^^ Want some of my popcorn?

Nom, nom, nom...

FFFFfffffff...... It's still winter isn't it...

Last couple of years I haven't noticed it as much because cyclocross takes me through February, and social media has taken over much of what BF used to fill for me, but "Fffffff" winter threads on BF can really be a lot of tough guy Internet stuff...


Rawr!!!

You are no better eric. You both are trolling. Here is your opportunity. If you don't come here to learn, debate or teach, then you shouldn't be here...or if you do...don't post because you have nothing to offer...but don't lower the decorum here and denigrate aka troll.

Here is your opportunity to teach and enlighten. Take the high road. Eric didn't when given the opportunity...indictment he was trolling. But you don't have to sink to his level. Teach. Let's see what you really know about carbon fiber frame manufacture. Dazzle us.

I want to really thank you for sharing that link Rebel! It was highly instructive to me, and even though I have quite a bit of experience with both carbon fiber construction and bicycle frame building, and the frame failed exactly as I expected it to, the failure occurred at a sustantially higher load than I would have ever guessed. The most impressive shot to me though was where the frame was slammed against the the concrete post, and I was certain that the third guy was going to destroy that frame for sure! I know none of my steel or aluminum frames could take anything like that abuse.

Yeah, it's not scientific in the sense of large sample size and proper controls, but it sure should at least help to put some minds at ease. And for the record, I ride a 10 year old Easton aluminum Fuji road frame, and a 6 year old aluminum Ibex MTB frame and an 11 year old aluminum Hardrock as a round town bike, so I don't really have an ax to grind CF-wise. Although I am planning to build up a Van Dessel CF frame this winter...

Completely fascinated by CF I once evaluated getting into the CF accessories business, but for cars not bicycles. So I managed to managed to learn quite a bit but I haven't actually built anything myself. I did contract out a few samples, still the business case wasn't sound to proceed.
But I'm never ever ever going to share anything with you since you called me eric.

But you do see why I referenced eric. if eric irks you with his denigration of this board..you do see you are no better...right? You did the same thing unprovoked...why I exorted you to take the high road. Teachers teach in spite of haters which is just background music based upon ignorance. Teaching not only enlightens but gives the teacher satisfaction in knowing he has at least tried to make a difference. Also, in my experience, teaching helps the teacher. Ideas are many times debated and in the end, truth is undeniable and both teachers and students learn in the process. So, if you have something to share, I implore you to share it.

For example, I would like to discuss how common tooling is combined. Commonized aka minimized number of carbon molds is most cost effective.
Of course a primary reason for slanted top tube bikes is minimize stand over and reduce no. of molds. What differentiates bike sizes mostly...is the front and not rear triangle of the bike. In the case of Cervelo, all Cervelo's even share the same sta. This makes all rear triangles the same...at least for a given frame model. So the challenge there is to graft a common rear triangle made in the same mold onto a different front end. Front triangles vary in terms of top tube, head tube and down tube length. In the case of Specialized for example...beginning with SL3 models a couple of years ago, Specialized molded their front triangles as one piece to increase rigidity. Again, this begs the issue, how the two halves are joined...is BB shared and located in position relative to rear triangle initalially or front triangle? How is lay up preformed to ensure adequate connection between the two halves? Answers to these questions are unknowable by the public but someone with a lot of experience with carbon fiber can speculate at least on how the lay up is performed..or how they would do it.

It grows smugly insufferable in here.

Whoops..you aren't so bad...well maybe this time.
At least you made an attempt to contribute earlier.

Perhaps we can examine the dynamic of hating then...since nobody seems to want to discuss the dynamic of how carbon fiber frames are made...or rather can't.
I find when a person either doesn't understand a subject...or perhaps more germainly, isn't willing to discuss the subject for fear of being exposed for how much they don't know, they in turn hate. Not everybody of course, but those that are the most insecure.
I will add, in my opinion, this isn't the best path to knowledge. A better roadmap, is subordinate one's ego and put out there what you know, and let others with greater knowledge improve upon assertions made. This iterative process leads to the truth. Defaulting to hate mode, only defiles the forum and of course doesn't seek the truth.

To quote a fellow BF member...

No need for speculation here, what CF products have you personally designed and manufactured?

The point is...you aren't speculating at all...lol. Until you do or can prove otherwise, I beg to differ.

Again, since you've jumped on several BFers here in your enthusiasm to highlight their lack of knowledge and experience while in no subtle a manner suggest your own superiority with carbon fiber, what CF products have you personally designed and manufactured?

Just a few quick points. Defiling the 41 is difficult if not impossible. Nobody really cares about how CF frames are made, they only care if they work. And finally, you know what they say about arguing on the interwebs. No matter how many SAT words you throw in, it still holds true.