I may have missed it, but what crank do you intend to use? For me, color scheme is largely based on what crank I intend, as it is the natural eye draw, and more prominent than the fork.

He is planning Athena 11

Yep, Athena 11. I think it's a good looking crank in either alloy or black (with the white text). I'm not planning to go for the carbon crank (at the moment, anyway)

Also, bear in mind, Rollcall - those are not the wheels I'll be using. My primary wheels will be DT Swiss RR465 / 370, so black with machined brake track, modest rim depth. I really like the H Plus Son Archetypes and may eventually build a wheel around those, but I can get the DT wheelset super cheap and am wanting to keep the initial build cost reasonable.

After I posted, I went back and spotted the Athena plan. It is nice looking stuff. I was just picturing Shimano black and am not a fan. Have you dealt with a PT crank? After putting a Centaur PT on my Cinelli, I realized I should have looked for an older 10 speed UT. The $100+ for a puller would be unneeded.

I have been tussling with that very thing. My gut sense is that I prefer the PT as a system, but I have no basis as to why - just a sense that I like a single shaft going between the two sides vs. a "split" shaft that joins in the middle. Again, I have no experience with UT and am wide open. In pricing on the UK sites it looks like the "Grouppo" deals are only a small amount less than buying the components individually, so it is certainly an option for me to source a different crank.

It seems to me the main issue would be the tools/puller that PT requires vs. UT. Is there a functional difference between the two (creaking, integrity, etc)?

I've only used UT but I have studied both designs. Take my comments with a grain of salt.

Both UT and PT are supseptible to the same problem: bb shell specs. Both have the same tight tolerances for shell width and bearing alignment. The hirth joint in an UT crankest is not a concern from a strength or alignment standpoint. I'm guessing the main reason why it was replaced at the lower end was cost. From an end user standpoint, I think UT is better in every way. Ultra torque only needs one "special tool" for installation and removal. The long Allen key that can be picked up nearly anywhere. Removing the bearings requires a puller, but the average consumer doesn't need it and the park tool is only about $60.

Canyoneagle, Ribble is doing 10% off right now, and it is cheaper to piece out than buy a full groupset with their Campy pricing. Total Cycling has a nice pool of UT cranks at decent prices, but all their other pieces are higher price than Ribble, even without the 10%.

If I did it again, I would get a UT crank. As thirdgenbird says, the puller is $60, but the crank adapter is another $60. I have not had the UT shifters, but have no complaints with my PT ones. I am crazy about my Centaur group, and avoided all the 11 speed chain tool BS.

I know the prices because I am contemplating sneaking another Centaur groupset, with a crank from Total Cycling, past the War Dept (my wife), just to have it for next winter's build, whatever that may be. The Nashbar retro was my fix for this winter, even though the bug seems to have not gone away.

My preference for UT cranksets is strong enough that I would consider a black centaur group and a still easy to find NOS black alloy UT crankset.

edit:silver Athena UT cranks are still out there as well but if you want black 11spd you would have to go carbon:
https://www.velomine.com/index.php?ma...oducts_id=1483

haha. good stuff.
The current deal at Ribble is killing me because I probably won't have the budget to get the group until April. Who knows - I do have a possible influx of cash from some relatively big ticket items I am trying to sell, but there's no guarantee of if & when that will happen, and I have some other things tying up my budget at the moment.

Perhaps lady luck will smile on me with a couple of sales

Thirdgen - Id assume my BB shell will be fine - it's a standard old-school threaded Italian BB shell (I haven't measured it but assume it is the normal Ital 70mm). I'll need to do some more homework there. The only external BB I have experience with is the Truvativ format on my commuter. I'm unfamiliar with the bearings being mounted on the shaft/spindle itself.

So, if I understand correctly, the main advantage of UT is the elimination of special tools other than a long allen wrench (already have one) and a bearing puller, where the PT requires two special tools. Correct?

The only UT cranks these days are Chorus and Record/SR. I guess I need to do some research and become more familiar with my options (prior iterations of 11sp UT).

Here's my conundrum - I really like the new "mid-compact" 52/36 setup, so that pretty much means a new Chorus crank if UT is truly superior to the PT. That comes at a huge cost - more so than any tools I'd need to remove a PT.

Hmmm..... It just seems simpler to me to get a PT 52/36 and get a puller at some point later, unless there's s technical advantage to the UT other than removal. Plus, the PT is over 100g lighter than the UT - not that I'm really counting, but 130g is not insignificant.

Yes, tools are the main difference.

for a few years, everything was ultratorque, but campy overpriced themselves. For a while, centaur had carbon cranks, carbon shifters, carbon rd plates, and skeleton brakes. I think it was better than dura ace in every way and was all anyone really needed. It has since been downgraded and the price reduced.

I don't think Athena UT was ever offerd in black alloy but check out the carbon one above.

Oh, and the bearing puller isn't "needed" for UT, it is just for bearing changes. I'm debating buying one ($60) and would be happy to send it to you if you were ever in need.

I'll probably end up buying one at some point to have in the toolkit.
The chain tool is the biggie. Seems (from the mechanic's subforum) that the Nicer Park (CT-4) is a suitable tool at a fraction of the Campy tool cost, and some even recommend going with the KMC 11sp master link, which eliminates the whole peening issue.

Thanks for the compliment, canyoneagle. I really think you are on the right track. I'm still relatively in love with the black group, contact points, and rims with silver spokes. In fact, I'm picking up a new wheel build tomorrow that has black rims, silver spokes, and silver hubs. Should look pretty sweet. I can post pics when their mounted if you would like.

Hey. Yeah, I've been real busy the last eight or so months. I'm flattered that my Schwinn helped to inspire such beauty as that Colnago build. I certainly wish I was using a better frame, but the setup has brought me a lot of pleasure and function, and somewhat inexpensively at that. I really look forward to the outcomes of your and canyoneagle's builds.

Alrighty, I've been researching the Campy UT vs PT cranks, and boy oh boy what a Pandora's box that is!

Am I correct in saying that the UT is less tolerant of BB shell deviations and is prone to side/side play (requiring out of warranty shim solutions), whereas the PT gives a little more leeway?

If this is true, I'm comfortable sticking with a full 2013 PT-based group rather than trying to source one of the 2010 UT cranksets. If not, I may actually take it down a notch, and go with '13 Centaur 10 with a Record/Chorus 10sp square taper crank.

UT and PT both have the same shell requirements per campy spec.

UT cranksets should not be shimmed. The wave washer provides proper preload and is used by more than just Campagnolo. Most (if not all) threads and conversations about shimming UT cranksets were propagated by a single person (rouge mechanic) and his thoughts on the subject are utterly worthless.



*the only acceptable time you should ever shim a campy crankset is if the bb shell is under spec. In this case, you would only shim the shell back to spec and then would install the crankset per Campagnolo instructions.

Yep, that's what I got out of the research - Roguemechanic's "fix" was creative, but struck me as dubious.

I've read that some of the 2011-12 "wave" washers had issues related to the bending spec (some were too weak).

I miss my old 10 speed Record It worked flawlessly and was pretty much "set it and forget it". Makes me wonder if I should just do the 10sp thing - either the '13 Centaur with an -'00-'07 ST BB/crank or a full used group (Record or Chorus).

Edit: My commuter has a Truvativ Stylo / GXP setup and it is dead simple. Seems to me Campy has made their new BB/crank system unnecessarily complex - perhaps to avoid copyright issues?

UT is probably one of the most simple system out there. It is easier to install and remove than square taper. It's only constraint is tight tolerances for the bb shell but this is no different than any of the new press fit standards.

facing the bb is directly in campagnolo's instructions yet rouge mechanic doesn't discuss it. In addition, the wave washer has nothing to do with lateral movement. The drive side cup and clip controls lateral movement and the wave washer controls preload. Finally, the system was designed for a little movement to prevent side load on the bearings. After doing several installs it is clear RM doesn't understand the system he claims to have fixed.

all of that said, square taper cartridge bottom brackets are better protected from the elements and are less prone to miss alignment issues. A ST chorus or record bb will last nearly forever.

Last I knew, the guy that bought my dad's carbon fiber record ct square taper crankset was in the market to sell it. Using this with a 2013 centaur group would allow you to go with a trouble free build in black without breaking the bank.

Stuff to ponder, for sure. Fortunately, I have time on my side, since I won't be in a position to pull the trigger on any kind of grouppo for at least 8 weeks, if not longer.
Thanks as always for your input - it seems we have a very similar approach to our builds, and it is good to hear your perspective.

MMMMMM. PM me if there's something stirring there. Consider me interested

It does seem our current (and past) builds have a lot in common.

i will let you know what I find.

Given all of my ruminations about cranks and such, I also acknowledge that I'm probably overthinking it, and that I'd be just fine getting a grouppo and running with it.
We'll see what unfolds in the coming weeks...

I'm going to solicit an update and reinforce my black vote by posting my "new" black brakes:

Moar!

Of this?