Radial lace creates huge stress in hub flanges, expensive hubs are expected to be light. Limits exist so that the customer gets both. Like I said I cant tell the difference between riding with 65kgf or 90kgf, both feel good so why add weight to a hub to resist unnecessary stress? I think I will go back to 90kgf however as it sits better on my mind.

Tire inflation affects different rims to varying degrees, I didnt notice much change to tension with the tire on or off. Good wheel building practice is to tension with the tire off and not adjust for tire pressure.

sigh.

Why? To save a gram per spoke? and lose aero benefits? and spend another couple hundred dollars? and add flex to the wheel?

I still dont know if you understand that I am talking about the newly offered BLADED super spoke and not the original super spoke. Regardless of what you say (And trust me, I appreciate the advice and concern), Jude has told me over and over now to ignore what I am reading on forums about the super spokes I bought. The newer bladed super is a stronger metal and will be stiffer than the regular sapim and the original super. It is bladed and looks similar to the CX ray sapim that is currently on the wheel now so there wont be any loss in aero. I have asked her the same question regarding this to confirm 3 or 4 times now and each time she has told me that it will be stiffer and lighter. I trust her. She has told me several times that it is not needed at all, but if I'm looking for overall wheel weight, it will lighten it up. It was roughly an additional $80, I had the money and i figured if I'm spending $1080 on wheels, whats another $80 to lighten the wheel? I know I dont NEED it, but I wanted it. she isn't charging me to rebuild the wheel with the new spokes and if it turns out that I dont like them, she will rebuild the wheel with the current sapims again at no charge. Whats to lose?

I wish I was "Cured". She just helped me realize that it isn't/shouldn't be a priority. I'm still aware of what the items weigh though :p

This is the part I'll never get...you're not a clydesdale, you had 20 before (no problems?), this is a pretty robust hub and rim, geez Shimano factory wheels get by with 16 for everybody, all rim types...24 is overkill IMO, but...more power to ya!

Stiffness.

The CX Super is just a flattened Super, just as a CX Ray is just a flattened Laser.

Ok well again, I don't have anything to lose because she will swap them out if I feel that they are. Furthermore, she says I won't lose stiffness.

You still haven't answered me though. Do you realize that I'm not talking about the original super spoke?

I'm glad she can defy the laws of physics.

Wow... and I thought the CX-Ray were expensive at ~$3.75 each. Wheelbuilder.com has CX-Supers listed at $8.75 each. That's $455 just for spokes on a 24/28 setup.

So you won't lose the aero benefit (in fact, they should be more aerodynamic), but the weight savings is not huge, the stiffness will definitely DECREASE by approximately 17%, and they will cost you an arm and a leg. For that kind of cash, I'd think you would prefer the ENVE rims on cheaper spokes.

I got a deal on them. She quoted me half that at first and honored her quote.

bikehubstore....

Probably why his wheels were $300 more than mine. Same basic wheel but mine use Sapim Laser and Race spokes.

Me too. Lucky me

All true in the cases you cite, but it ain't necessarily so. American Classic front Micro 58s are 42 grams lighter than the DT 180 fronts, yet have no such (<100 kgf) limitations that I know of. Same for their rear which is a little heavier than the DT but not much. And the AC hubs are hundreds cheaper than the DT. I have seen 5-10 kgf change after mounting and inflating a tire. Yes you are right, the build spec refers to the no tire condition. Nevertheless, one can rightly think of the inflated tire as providing a bit of safety margin.

I build my fronts (AC 58s or BHS Bitex cheapies) to 120 kgf always, and have never over many years observed the slightest problem. I am well aware of the reverence with which the 41 regards DT and CK hubs, but I feel it is unconscionable for those companies to charge the prices they do and still insist on covering their butts with ultra conservative tensioning recommendations. Compared to many other hub sources, they are not giving what is paid for. I expect to be able to tension spokes up to very near the limiting strength of the rims. Until reading this thread I have never encountered hubs with radial functionality that imposed a lower limit than that. That is not how it is supposed to be.

Robert

I dunno about all that, but always understood the goal was to get a trued and perfectly round wheel that would stay that way, not one with spoke tension maxed out or exactly the same for all spokes. But y'all are the experts, so I'll shut up. And as much as I don't want to appear to be in agreement with Robert...using expensive hubs on an otherwise cost-conscious build just seems counter-intuitive.

Well, having all the spokes uniformly tensioned close to the limit MAKES the wheel stay true and round longer because no one spoke is going to be de-tensioned during transient flexing or loading.

Maybe so. But I'm far from the only person who went with the rim and hub combo. I'm just excited to ride them and see how they feel.

Just want to be sure you know none of this current discussion is meant as a criticism of your wheels, which are clearly very sweet. The conversation is more about how Jude has properly handled the wheel build despite the hub maker down talking its own product.

Before going further out on a limb I thought it wise to check the Am. Classic web site for wheel building specifications. Here is the chart they provide: http://www.amclassic.com/documents/m...ifications.pdf

If you take a look at this, you will see that there are lower tensions and higher tensions recommended, but the variance has to do solely with the type of rim used, i.e. aluminum alloy and magnesium have higher tensions than carbon. That is due to the differences in rim material strength. True, the front tensions do top out a little lower than I use, at 110 kgf, but that maximum recommendation is higher than reported in this thread for CK R45s and DT 180s.

I agree that 65kgf seems overly conservative, im not arguing about that. Im simply bringing this up in the discussion as i was interested to know what a respected builder was tensioning to.

I plan on upping the tension based on my own thoughts and the findings of this thread. It will be the first and most likely the last time I ever take advice from a forum thread over the manufacturers advice. I wont go to 115kgf though. fistly I am lighter than Bianchi and second, I see no need to stress everything to the max. I'm going back to my original 90kgf which seems entirely reasonable given that I weigh 75kg and am using 24 spokes. It also correlates with my suspicion that the blanket 65kgf recommendation is calculated based on a 32 or 36 hole hub.

That makes no reference to lacing pattern and may be for factory built wheels to allow spoke replacement. My shimano radial RS10 is tensioned to about 110 but uses a different hub design entirely

IMO that is how this thing is supposed to work. Bright folks who are fully involved in their gear and are comfortable with their own abilities should make these kinds of decisions for themselves. Your intentions re: tension make sense as you have done some research, and you know your situation and needs. If you discover your build is not exactly right later on, it can always be adjusted.

It is not clear to me what you mean by your comment above. What is your concern about lacing pattern? What do you mean by "...to allow spoke replacement."? Actually at least some of the Am. Classic stock wheel designs are 8 radial spokes non-drive side, 16 2X spokes drive side. The individual spoke tensions on the two sides are very close to equal. The chart I referenced provides the spoke tensions used by the OEM and which are recommended for wheel retruing and repair.

I can't believe in two pages no one has mentioned........

"Holy cross-chain, Batman!!!!" Your RD looks like it is in excruciating pain.

Sweet wheels though.

Wowza, I don't know much about chain length and stuff like that, but shouldn't that chain be longer?