Testing New Wheels
03-12-13 | 10:24 AM
#177
Rubber side down
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,788
Likes: 284
From: Teh Quickie Mart
Bikes: are fun! :-)
I think there's a lurkfest going on with this thread. I think lot of people are just trying to stay out of the way so the thread doesn't get too big.
Regarding
, somebody really needs to get on the ball and start selling EPO branded hubs, rims, wheels, clothing, etc. The window of opportunity is wide open right now, and I think someone is really missing out. I'd get some in a second just to keep me laughing on the road.
Regarding
Maybe the demo wheels came with free EPO.
Last edited by Clipped_in; 03-12-13 at 10:29 AM.
03-12-13 | 10:44 AM
#178
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,711
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From: Sacramento, CA
Bikes: S-Works SL3 Tarmac, Allez E5, Leader 735TT, others
03-12-13 | 11:11 AM
#179
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,244
Likes: 17
From: Traverse City Michigan
I am certainly lurking and reading. In fact I just built up and am now riding a wheel set like your first demo set featuring CK R45 hubs, HED Belgium rims and CxRay spokes 24/24 radial front and 2x/2x rear. I won't add any of my personal observations so I not to skew your feelings.
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Kona Jake the Snake
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03-12-13 | 11:26 AM
#180
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,104
Likes: 1
From: South Florida
Erin Glover from Portland State/Sizzle Pie cycling won a few races (RR/TTT/Crit) this weekend on your Pink test wheels. Wonder if she got them from Sugar Wheel Works too. You guys should ride together. It would be cute 
03-12-13 | 11:29 AM
#181
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,104
Likes: 1
From: South Florida
I think there's a lurkfest going on with this thread. I think lot of people are just trying to stay out of the way so the thread doesn't get too big.
Regarding , somebody really needs to get on the ball and start selling EPO branded hubs, rims, wheels, clothing, etc. The window of opportunity is wide open right now, and I think someone is really missing out. I'd get some in a second just to keep me laughing on the road.
Regarding , somebody really needs to get on the ball and start selling EPO branded hubs, rims, wheels, clothing, etc. The window of opportunity is wide open right now, and I think someone is really missing out. I'd get some in a second just to keep me laughing on the road.
03-12-13 | 11:41 AM
#182
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,104
Likes: 1
From: South Florida
-Hubs-REALLY like the hubs. Though Jude told me that DT Swiss has limited options for spoke count. I didn't look them up in fear that I would try to dig up some numbers of weight so I will discuss that with her more. If you do know the spoke options for dt swiss 350, feel free to tell me, just please nothing more.
03-12-13 | 02:17 PM
#184
Thread Starter
King Hoternot
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,255
Likes: 0
From: Oregon City, OR
Bikes: 2015 Cannondale Evo Hi mod
Ironically, today I had a co-worker ask me if I had ever thought about selling my wheels (I helped get him into cycling). I told him that I was currently thinking about it so that I could upgrade my wheels to a new set. He asked how much and I said.....$350? he said, ok let me know when you are ready.
That means I could tell jude that I could raise my price limit and possibly get into something even gooder!
That means I could tell jude that I could raise my price limit and possibly get into something even gooder!
03-12-13 | 02:58 PM
#185
Jet Jockey
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,941
Likes: 30
From: St. Paul, MN
Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9, Ritchey Breakaway Cross, Nashbar X-frame bike, Bike Friday Haul-a-Day, Surly Pugsley.
Most of what anyone thinks they perceive in these kinds of tests, whether it be on frames or wheels, is a psychological construct of acoustic feedback. That's pretty much it.
If you could deafen yourself, and blind yourself, you would find that humans are mostly incapable of "feeling" the differences between wheels, if all the wheels being compared are properly made and functioning. Typically, differences in vertical stiffness amount to the thickness of a sheet of paper. If there are lateral flex issues, then the wheel was improperly tensioned, or has too few spokes for your weight.
That's pretty much it.
If you could deafen yourself, and blind yourself, you would find that humans are mostly incapable of "feeling" the differences between wheels, if all the wheels being compared are properly made and functioning. Typically, differences in vertical stiffness amount to the thickness of a sheet of paper. If there are lateral flex issues, then the wheel was improperly tensioned, or has too few spokes for your weight.
That's pretty much it.
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Good night...and good luck
Good night...and good luck
03-12-13 | 06:35 PM
#186
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 28,682
Likes: 63
From: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Most of what anyone thinks they perceive in these kinds of tests, whether it be on frames or wheels, is a psychological construct of acoustic feedback. That's pretty much it.
If you could deafen yourself, and blind yourself, you would find that humans are mostly incapable of "feeling" the differences between wheels, if all the wheels being compared are properly made and functioning. Typically, differences in vertical stiffness amount to the thickness of a sheet of paper. If there are lateral flex issues, then the wheel was improperly tensioned, or has too few spokes for your weight.
That's pretty much it.
If you could deafen yourself, and blind yourself, you would find that humans are mostly incapable of "feeling" the differences between wheels, if all the wheels being compared are properly made and functioning. Typically, differences in vertical stiffness amount to the thickness of a sheet of paper. If there are lateral flex issues, then the wheel was improperly tensioned, or has too few spokes for your weight.
That's pretty much it.
03-12-13 | 07:00 PM
#187
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,841
Likes: 1
From: NZ
Bikes: More than 1, but, less than S-1
Most of what anyone thinks they perceive in these kinds of tests, whether it be on frames or wheels, is a psychological construct of acoustic feedback. That's pretty much it.
If you could deafen yourself, and blind yourself, you would find that humans are mostly incapable of "feeling" the differences between wheels, if all the wheels being compared are properly made and functioning. Typically, differences in vertical stiffness amount to the thickness of a sheet of paper. If there are lateral flex issues, then the wheel was improperly tensioned, or has too few spokes for your weight.
That's pretty much it.
If you could deafen yourself, and blind yourself, you would find that humans are mostly incapable of "feeling" the differences between wheels, if all the wheels being compared are properly made and functioning. Typically, differences in vertical stiffness amount to the thickness of a sheet of paper. If there are lateral flex issues, then the wheel was improperly tensioned, or has too few spokes for your weight.
That's pretty much it.
__________________
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
03-12-13 | 07:11 PM
#188
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 28,682
Likes: 63
From: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Any objective evidence supporting that assertion?
It would be fun to paint five frames black with no decals or other identifiers and build up with identical parts and wheels. Then see how rider/reviewer opinion squares with build intent and instrumental evidence.
Robert
It would be fun to paint five frames black with no decals or other identifiers and build up with identical parts and wheels. Then see how rider/reviewer opinion squares with build intent and instrumental evidence.
Robert
03-12-13 | 07:34 PM
#189
Of course there's no objective evidence. We're talking about perception. Not everyone is as sensitive to changes. Some won't notice small changes, others will notice them. Perception is a funny thing.
FWIW, I went through a similar process when selecting wheels for one of my bikes and when replacing the rims on another. I am loathe to post my perceptions.
FWIW, I went through a similar process when selecting wheels for one of my bikes and when replacing the rims on another. I am loathe to post my perceptions.
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-------
Some sort of pithy irrelevant one-liner should go here.
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Some sort of pithy irrelevant one-liner should go here.
03-12-13 | 07:36 PM
#190
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,586
Likes: 1
From: Atlanta, GA
Bikes: A couple
Any objective evidence supporting that assertion?
It would be fun to paint five frames black with no decals or other identifiers and build up with identical parts and wheels. Then see how rider/reviewer opinion squares with build intent and instrumental evidence.
Robert
It would be fun to paint five frames black with no decals or other identifiers and build up with identical parts and wheels. Then see how rider/reviewer opinion squares with build intent and instrumental evidence.
Robert
https://www.habcycles.com/m7.html
03-12-13 | 07:41 PM
#191
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 28,682
Likes: 63
From: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
[QUOTE=JoelS;15379137]Of course there's no objective evidence. We're talking about perception. Not everyone is as sensitive to changes. Some won't notice small changes, others will notice them. Perception is a funny thing.
FWIW, I went through a similar process when selecting wheels for one of my bikes and when replacing the rims on another. I am loathe to post my perceptions.[/QUOTE
Not you. Big Fred.
FWIW, I went through a similar process when selecting wheels for one of my bikes and when replacing the rims on another. I am loathe to post my perceptions.[/QUOTE
Not you. Big Fred.
03-12-13 | 08:08 PM
#194
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,841
Likes: 1
From: NZ
Bikes: More than 1, but, less than S-1
If we're talking about 'perceptions', no objective evidence is required. The fact that one rider percieves a difference is evidence enough, regardless of whether another rider percieves the same or not.
If we are talking about actual physical differences. The real world difference(time climbing a given grade) for wheels of differing weights is easily calculated, as has been demonstrated on this forum and many others time and again. The same is true for the aerodynamic advantage of deep section wheels.
But, if we're talking about rider perception. I would disagree with Banzai's assumption that it is simply a construct of acoustic feedback. That may or may not be the case with some hollow carbon rims that have very unique acoustic signatures. But, in the case of aluminum clinchers, isolated, from the road by pneumatic tires there is certainly more than acoustics influencing rider perception of ride qualities. Certainly one rim dragging on brakes brakes as a consequence of lateral flex is not a construct of acoustic feedback. Nor, would cornering traits of that rim compared to others be a construct of acoustic feedback. The decrased gyroscopic effect of lighter rims and nipples and how that influences how the bike feels as one stands and sways on climbs or attempts to accelerate is not going to be a constuct of accoustic feedback.
But, since we're talking about perceptions and Banzai was the one to forward the hypothesis. Perhaps he should provide the objective evidence that proves his assertion.
If we are talking about actual physical differences. The real world difference(time climbing a given grade) for wheels of differing weights is easily calculated, as has been demonstrated on this forum and many others time and again. The same is true for the aerodynamic advantage of deep section wheels.
But, if we're talking about rider perception. I would disagree with Banzai's assumption that it is simply a construct of acoustic feedback. That may or may not be the case with some hollow carbon rims that have very unique acoustic signatures. But, in the case of aluminum clinchers, isolated, from the road by pneumatic tires there is certainly more than acoustics influencing rider perception of ride qualities. Certainly one rim dragging on brakes brakes as a consequence of lateral flex is not a construct of acoustic feedback. Nor, would cornering traits of that rim compared to others be a construct of acoustic feedback. The decrased gyroscopic effect of lighter rims and nipples and how that influences how the bike feels as one stands and sways on climbs or attempts to accelerate is not going to be a constuct of accoustic feedback.
But, since we're talking about perceptions and Banzai was the one to forward the hypothesis. Perhaps he should provide the objective evidence that proves his assertion.
__________________
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
03-12-13 | 08:11 PM
#195
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 28,682
Likes: 63
From: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Funny, I know what stiffness feels like in terms of comfort but not in terms of power transmission. I have no idea what is meant in reviews by power on the pedals going directly to the wheels or some such stuff. I imagine the less stiff frame feeling like a pogo stick. But in all my 30 years of road bike cycling I have never felt such a thing. Not on 531 steel or Trek screwed and glued aluminum or Giant Advanced SL carbon, or Everti titanium or finally not on Ritchey Breakaway steel. I just think it is mostly (not all) hype. The differences are mostly too small to feel power-wise. Comfort-wise I don't dispute at all. That even I can feel.
Robert
Robert
Last edited by rpenmanparker; 03-12-13 at 08:15 PM.
03-12-13 | 08:20 PM
#196
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 28,682
Likes: 63
From: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
If we're talking about 'perceptions', no objective evidence is required. The fact that one rider percieves a difference is evidence enough, regardless of whether another rider percieves the same or not.
If we are talking about actual physical differences. The real world difference(time climbing a given grade) for wheels of differing weights is easily calculated, as has been demonstrated on this forum and many others time and again. The same is true for the aerodynamic advantage of deep section wheels.
But, if we're talking about rider perception. I would disagree with Banzai's assumption that it is simply a construct of acoustic feedback. That may or may not be the case with some hollow carbon rims that have very unique acoustic signatures. But, in the case of aluminum clinchers, isolated, from the road by pneumatic tires there is certainly more than acoustics influencing rider perception of ride qualities. Certainly one rim dragging on brakes brakes as a consequence of lateral flex is not a construct of acoustic feedback. Nor, would cornering traits of that rim compared to others be a construct of acoustic feedback. The decrased gyroscopic effect of lighter rims and nipples and how that influences how the bike feels as one stands and sways on climbs or attempts to accelerate is not going to be a constuct of accoustic feedback.
But, since we're talking about perceptions and Banzai was the one to forward the hypothesis. Perhaps he should provide the objective evidence that proves his assertion.
If we are talking about actual physical differences. The real world difference(time climbing a given grade) for wheels of differing weights is easily calculated, as has been demonstrated on this forum and many others time and again. The same is true for the aerodynamic advantage of deep section wheels.
But, if we're talking about rider perception. I would disagree with Banzai's assumption that it is simply a construct of acoustic feedback. That may or may not be the case with some hollow carbon rims that have very unique acoustic signatures. But, in the case of aluminum clinchers, isolated, from the road by pneumatic tires there is certainly more than acoustics influencing rider perception of ride qualities. Certainly one rim dragging on brakes brakes as a consequence of lateral flex is not a construct of acoustic feedback. Nor, would cornering traits of that rim compared to others be a construct of acoustic feedback. The decrased gyroscopic effect of lighter rims and nipples and how that influences how the bike feels as one stands and sways on climbs or attempts to accelerate is not going to be a constuct of accoustic feedback.
But, since we're talking about perceptions and Banzai was the one to forward the hypothesis. Perhaps he should provide the objective evidence that proves his assertion.
03-12-13 | 08:24 PM
#197
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2010
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From: TC, MN
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
03-12-13 | 08:25 PM
#198
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,841
Likes: 1
From: NZ
Bikes: More than 1, but, less than S-1
Funny, I know what stiffness feels like in terms of comfort but not in terms of power transmission. I have no idea what is meant in reviews by power on the pedals going directly to the wheels or some such stuff. I imagine the less stiff frame feeling like a pogo stick. But in all my 30 years of road bike cycling I have never felt such a thing. Not on 531 steel or Trek screwed and glued aluminum or Giant Advanced SL carbon, or Everti titanium or finally not on Ritchey Breakaway steel. I just think it is mostly (not all) hype. The differences are mostly too small to feel power-wise. Comfort-wise I don't dispute at all. That even I can feel.
Robert
Robert
With regards to power transfer and wheel stiffness. You may not have experienced the difference. I feel I have. I've ridden different wheels on the same frame and have experienced brake pad rub with some, but, not others. That is the physical demonstration of a feeling that is apparent even when the rub doesn't exist. I've also had the experience of riding the same wheels on more than one frame and experienced chainstay rub on one frame but not the other. This can be somewhat less straight forward, because of differing clearances between the two frames. But, generally that would be an indication of realative lateral frame stiffness at the bottom bracket. Where the aforementioned brake rub would suggest lateral wheel movement. If you've never experienced any of this, consider yourself lucky and carry on.
It's Wednesday here. Bianchi should be due another swap tomorrow or the next day. I wonder what's next?
__________________
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
03-12-13 | 08:26 PM
#199
Fixie Infamous
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,480
Likes: 28
Too small to feel power wise? In terms of comfort I don't really care, but power transmission is definitely key for me, and very noticeable. My CAAD10 is amazingly stiff, but I've had brake rub issues with my 28h rear wheel (admittedly, I keep my calipers very tight, no longer the case though). On the other hand, my track bike, which is steel has MAJOR frame flex issues. The wheels are 32h, 42mm deep alloy, high flange hub, bladed spokes, so they're as stiff as wheels get.
During major sprints my rear tire will leave a skid mark on the drive side chain stay.
That definitely isn't too small to notice, and definitely not hype. Stiffness is an issue for a lot of us.
Edit: bigfred and I literally just said the same thing.
During major sprints my rear tire will leave a skid mark on the drive side chain stay.
That definitely isn't too small to notice, and definitely not hype. Stiffness is an issue for a lot of us.
Edit: bigfred and I literally just said the same thing.
03-12-13 | 08:47 PM
#200
John Wayne Toilet Paper
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,952
Likes: 0
From: Roanoke
Bikes: BH carbon, Ritchey steel, Kona aluminum
All the talk of stiffness in here reminds me of an article I read on slowtwitch yesterday discussing the different aspects of "stiffness" and how differences in spoke stiffness manifest as compared to rim stiffness.
https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debun...ness_3449.html
https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debun...ness_3449.html