rpenmanparker 

How do you so confidently tell the difference between a fad and a revolutionary wave? If riders notice an improvement, isn't that the underpinning of permanent change? Are carbon bikes a fad and we are all going back to steel? Do you think anyone successfully riding a cutout saddle is going to decide to back the other way? Do you think we are all going to be riding 36/36 wheelsets ever again. All of those developments are extremely unlikely.

Manufacturers still sell traditional saddles because people like them, the same reason they sell cutout saddles.

What does your Brooks experience have to do with other people? No one is trying to convert you. Why make it sound like if you don't want to change, no one should. Cutout saddles are no more expensive than conventional and many very good ones are cheaper than anything Brooks makes. What are you talking about, "Why spend more money..."

Your concept of weight as an issue is terribly limited. Physics be damned; I like light weight and that makes it an issue to me. It doesn't even have to help me ride faster; I just like it. Especially when I am lifting the bike to hang it from the ceiling! And yes, try as you might unsuccessfully to make it seem foolish, it is my money to spend.

Perhaps you have never had pain breaking in a Brooks saddle, because the ones you bought were of the newer pre-softened variety. A splendid development. Perhaps it is because you have a cast iron tush. Makes no difference. As I understand it, Brooks saddles capture such a small fraction of the race bike cyclist market for three reasons: their weight, their cost, and the difficulty of breaking them in. Sure they still sell them, but in very small numbers relative to the modern, molded, plastic and foam competition. I am glad you enjoy yours, and hope you continue to for many years to come. Just don't expect to convert everyone else to Brooks. Their time has passed.

When you say, "If the leather saddle does not fit OK during the first 200 miles, then one should look for another solution," what type of solution would make sense to you, a modern cutout saddle. That is where I would head. Of course YMMV.

Your experiences are of great interest to me and I expect many other readers of this thread in fleshing out the whole story regarding saddle preferences. They just don't comprise rules for everyone to live by.

Robert

WhyFi

So, I'm a Brooks ignoramus, but I was under the impression that they're typically leather stretched over a frame. Why would the (in)effectiveness of a cut-out in that scenario translate to the effectiveness of a cutout in a "modern" saddle? Apples and oranges, as far as I see it.

DerHoggz

Are you actually having pain, or do you just like the conceptual benefits of a cut-out?

rpenmanparker 

In my case I had an attack of prostatitis which made regular saddle riding very painful. Throbbing during and for days after a ride. Was considering a recumbent (blech!). The cutout saddle saved me from that fate.

chaadster

An oft overlooked benefit of cutouts is enhanced comfort through temperature and moisture reduction. There's a lot of friction and heat being generated between the rider's short and the saddle, and that can exacerbate the sensation of pressure points, or hot spots. We're more comfortable when we're drier and cooler rather than damp and too hot, so no surprise there.

SMP is great in this regard, because the channel is so open to airflow, but similarly the Cobb V design element and the large cutout of the Selle Italia SLR Superflow really demonstrate the principle well, though I suspect that virtually all cutouts offer some benefit in this regard.

Gran Fondo

Well, the gluing part didn't go as well as I had hoped, but I should have known. I can do many things, but when it comes to glue or paint, I always make a mess. Anyway, I hurried the job. If I had taken my time, I'm sure I could have got it to look nicer. Anybody with upholtering experience would likely do a better job too. Here are some pics of the test I did on a cheap, spare saddle. I dont think I'll attempt this with my other saddle. On a related note, I went for a 40-mile ride with the Selle Italia SLR Flow today - thought I'd give it another chance. Nope, I can't stand it. I can't believe they're on sale for $158 (from $190)! I wouldn't pay $58 for it. So while I continue to ride with the cheap, lightweight saddle from Back Country, my search will continue for a comfortable saddle with a cut-out.

chaadster

That looks pretty damn good; better than I expected! With a little practice, you might be able to parlay saddle conversions into a side business!

Banzai

This entire thread is kind of bizarre.

furballi

I'm a scientist and I believe in physics, not words like "if riders notice an improvement". Ever been in a double-blind test? For the majority of non-pro cyclists, having the proper physical fitness and a decent ENGINE beats having the lastest bells and whistle. 36H wheels are stronger and pose virtually no speed penalty vs 24H wheels. I dare you to come up with any math that would prove me wrong.

I simply stated that a regular saddle works better for me. I see the cut-out as fad, but don't dismiss that it may help some rider. Do you have issue with reading?

If you are one of those who still believe that the world is flat and physics be damned, then don't wander too far from home or you may fall out of bed!

furballi

The cut-out on the Brooks Imperial and a few non-leather saddle didn't work for me, but I also said that the design may help a few with bottom end issue.

AdelaaR

Looks pretty good, actually.
Good job.

We'll be expecting a full review after 1000 kilometers through various types of weather and over various types of terrain.
In the case that your saddle breaks, because you possibly changed the structural integrity, and you die a horrible death, we expect you deputize someone to notify us about it, too.

rpenmanparker 

You have totally misconstrued my comments. And you are also expressing a curious mix of relying on facts and ignoring facts. I never said your take on the physics was wrong, or that I didn't believe it or in it. Small world; amazing how many of us are scientists and engineers. Of course the higher spoke wheel is stronger. The difference in spoke count may help somebody, but it isn't going to make any difference to my riding time for sure. What I said was (in a nutshell) many folks don't care about the math/physics. I know the scientific facts that you quote are true (some), have done the math, and I don't care either. I don't care if my 20/24 wheels aren't the strongest possible. I like them, and I trust them. Same for lots of other riders. They care about ...well whatever they care about. And I never said your opinion wasn't valid for you. But most of all I never said one type of saddle was actually better than another in any respect. I said people prefer one to another. That is the important thing. Not many riders care about double blind tests. It is more like: I tried it, it worked or didn't work for me, that is/isn't what I will ride. And worked can mean looks, performance, cost, just about anything. It is that personal. What I see is that you are focused on being technically right when that is not at all what drives the market for cycling goods. But when a rider says this particular saddle is better for me, just as you did, how is anyone, skilled experimentalist or not, qualified to say they are wrong. I'm sorry, but you can't get everyone to agree with you because of the scientific truths whether they apply to the situation or not.

Robert

rpenmanparker 

Nice job, but I think you left too little material at the side edges of the saddle, which could have resulted in your dissatisfaction. I would expect your perineum to bottom out from too little support. The center of your "tender" area might be protected by the cutout, but the edges will be taking all the weight, i.e. there will be higher pressure because of lower surface area. Also consider that the foam used in the saddle was chosen with the planned design in mind, not your modified design. That could also be an issue.

Robert

531Aussie

Wow! I reckon you've done a great job! For me, that hole still looks a bit narrow toward the nose.

I've been doing my own cut-outs for about 15 years, with great success, if I may say.
However, I just cut out the plastic and leave the padding and cover as is.


I had some prostatitis about 15 years ago, and i thought for a while that I might have to quit riding! I tried a few 'real' cut-out saddles, but I didn't like them at all. In fact, a couple of them felt like torture devices. I thought it was all over. I even rode for a while with the saddle pointed way down, with a ton of weight on my hands, but, as you can imagine, this was sh1t.

I was whining to a bike shop guy about it one day, and he said that when I first heard about cut-out saddles, he tried cutting out one of his old ones, just because he was curious. Bingo! It never even dawned on me that I could do this until he mentioned it.

Before my 'issue', my favourite saddle was a Selle Italia Turbo (sill is), so I figured I'd be fine if I could just cut out the section that was causing the pressure, and it worked immediately.

Since then there have obviously been a stack more cut-out saddles released, and one day I'll get around to trying some. I especially the SMPs.

Anyway, I usually cut from underneath, very carefully with a drill. This obviously means that I don't have to do any re-gluing or re-covering, but the downside is that I can't smooth the edges of the plastic properly.

It'll probably take some trial and error.
My preference is roughly a 3cm x 10cm rectangle, starting approximately 8cm from the nose. I found that if I cut too wide, too much pressure moves to the adductors when I'm hammering. Yes, it make take you a few shots to get what you like.

Even though I got it right the first time with my Selle Italia Turbos, the same 'process' didn't work on other saddles (it was tricky to get Turbos for a while, until Ebay Aus grew, and the re-issue versions were made.


The biggest downside is that the relatively sharp (or just too thin) edges of the cut plastic eventually start cutting into the foam, so you can end up with some hard spots on the saddle where small bits of foam fall off. I've tried smoothing out the edges and putting cloth tape over, but it wasn't very effective.

Another thing to check is that there needs to be enough gap between the rails and the plastic, especially toward the front. If not, then once the plastic is cut, you just end up getting pressure from the rails.

Aesthetically, it's not very noticeable on saddles with 'real'/thick-enough leather, but thinner suede and vinyl can eventually crease on the edges.

I also found that, because you're removing a fair chunk of the top/front of the saddle, I have to tilt them up a bit more

Hmm, that's all I can think of at the moment.

Keep going for it. Cheap seats are obviously very cheap, so who cares?

Incidentally, I've never had a saddle bust doing this.

rpenmanparker 

@531Aussie, what you need is the Dremel Tool (Used to be called the Dremel Mototool, I think) www.dremel.com. It has all kinds of fittings for any sort of cutting and smoothing job. The steel cutting wheel would likely do well on the shell and the abrasive attachments would allow you to do the smoothing. You comment about the adductors is just what I was saying about taking out too much near the edge.

531Aussie

It sounds like some people are generalizing from their own experiences, and those of their friends. Sure, the majority of cyclists don't need them (comfort wise; the possible long-term damage to the area is something different), but I know some older blokes who'd probably have to quit riding if they didn't have a cut-out saddle

531Aussie

Thanks. I hadn't thought of a dremel. Could I just use a drill attachment?

Yep, I agree: I reckon there's a very fine line between taking pressure off the middle and putting it too wide, where the adductors start.
I found that this can also be an issue with flatter/wider saddles. Sure, having a flatter, wider middle 'spreads the load', but a too-wide area really digs into my adductors when I'm grinding. A nice wide stool might be ok for a recreational rider who just rolls around, not caring about how quick he's going or how high his saddle is, but for the rest of us who still wanna try to ride as fast as we did we when were 25, well...... Ha.

rpenmanparker 

We like to say "more experienced" not "older"!

531Aussie

^ Ha! That's right! I forgot.

Gran Fondo

I used the saddle on the rollers yesterday and didn't feel the cutout, but could feel the air circulating, which is good, I guess. The saddle itself isn't comfy (for me) because of the high curve up at the back, so I won't be putting road miles on it.

FYI, I used a dremel with a mini circular saw attachment to cut the lengthy sides of the cutout and a razor blade to connect them and clean it up. It was a bit tricky to get the right angle with the rails in the way, but I did it by going under the opposite side I was cutting (before turning on the power so as not to cut or nick anything by accident). The cutout itself looked good - almost like it came that way. I used the razor blade to trim the foam padding as well. Again, that went well. I only wished I had done a nicer job gluing the cloth. The glue I used was Locktite indistrial strength super glue. It's never coming apart where it's glued.

shoota 

Wanna send it to me so I can try it? I've been dealing with numbness and can't really afford a new "proper" cutout type saddle. I'd pay shipping

merlinextraligh

This. If the saddle fits you the cutout is irrelevant.

If the saddle doesn't fit you, the cutout won't help.


While people msy find that cutout saddles work for them, it's not due to the cutout. It's because the saddle supports their weight correctly.

You're supposed to sit on your sitz bones, not your perineum. If the saddle supports you correctly, there's no pressure in the area that's cutout on some saddles cutout or no.

chaadster

I disagree with this. "Supposed to" according to what or whom? And what's the problem with using a cutout? If I'm not sitting on my sit bones, and rather my perineum, yet have a cutout, what am I sitting on?

ultraman6970

This thread is great!...

road2you

i think you did a nice attempt with the cutout.
creativity is key to comfort in ones mind.
you will find a saddle you like or you will make the saddle you like.