since i'll be buying everything new, new wheels will be no problem :D

I would say that both the FD action and the chain rings are important for smooth front shifts. But all I know is that with 600, DA, Ultegra, Red, and Rival I push the correct lever on the left hand side of the bars and the chain shifts to the large front ring. I push the correct lever again and the chain shifts down to the small chain ring. Just exactly like it has been doing for the last 30+ years with friction shifters, SIS, and now with brifters. What more exactly is it supposed to do?

A more realistic comparison has yet to be debated, being NEW Shimano Ultegra 6800 11 speed and SRAM Force 22.................now there's going to be a real battle.
My bet is with Force since I'm partial to it. Quality, Durability, Aesthetics, Function and Weight. I like Shimano, just something about using plastic internals of a brake lever moving all over the place.
SRAM has always seemed to be built better. Believe me, shimano is NOT cheap, I just have a problem with Engineered plastic.

is the curent FD on sram force really that bad?

There is a vocal group of dissatisfied posters regarding SRAM front shifting. Never has been a problem for me. You will have to determine this for yourself.

i did a bit of searching and it seems there are quite a few people having problems. can this be because of the fact that the FD is quite tricky to set up? so that in a lot of cases it's bad adjustment that's the problem or is it really a problem with the FD?

Why not try this? Go to your LBS and ask the wrench there what his take on the FD problems are. Do a lot of folks come in complaining they have trouble and ask for adjustment or silver bullet. Are they hard to set up and so on. See what those folks say. Who would know better?

The problem with trying this, is that some LBS shops push the brand they sell. I know of two shops that talk smack about SRAM and of course they don't sell it. I have the 2010 Force gruppo and have never had issues with my front derailleur. Shifting or setup.

Ultegra 11 will be coming out soon, too.

My main bike as of last fall has Force. I like it, but it seems fussier about cable tension and hanger alignment than Ultegra and 105. Also, some simultaneous double-shifts that worked fine on Shimano often have unhappy consequences under double-tap. I think that's what did in Andy Schleck at the 2009 Tour de France. But I like having brake levers that aren't involved in the shifting.

Bingo. Shift quality seems more or less on par to me. Force a little more finicky on the FD, and in my experience, less on the rear. But the vector of the braking is what converted me. Force allows you to brake by pulling the lever along an axis other than purely back. I ride with my hands out a little, and in sudden braking, the lever is very solid, even as I am still moving my hand inwards. Do that on Ultegra and it can't figure out whether you're shifting or braking. It'll try to do both, in a very disconcerting movement of the lever.

+1 I just switched from Shimano Ultegra (9-sp 6500) to SRAM Red. I bought the components used so the levers, brakes, and rear derailleur are from the prior generation. However, I made it a point to get the "new" 2012+ crankset and Yaw front derailleur. The FD was a little tricky to set up initially, however once I got it adjusted it shifts really well, with absolutely no chain rub! I'm very happy. I haven't used any Shimano 10-sp, so I can't really talk to that. After reading many posts and reviews, I went with an Ultegra cassette. It works well for me.

guess i'll consider waiting a bit longer so i can get the new force 22 with the yaw derailleur

The Red Yaw front derailleur is available now. You can mix and match Red and Force 10-sp parts, no problem.

i know but i'm on kind of a tight budget for the bike and components i want (€2900) and i don't think they change the FD without charging me for the force one

You started out with 2 options, and i think we helped you narrow it down to about 5 options. Your welcome;)

i think shimano is kind of out of the race so i think there are 3 left
full force
force red yaw FD
force 22

#2 imho

got a point there but there are people who claim to have it set-up and working. if that's true or they're just living with it is the actual question.

personally, I'd go rival RD (i'm cheap, its light and works great), force shifters, crank & brakes, red yaw fd.

haha and i have this mental illness where i don't like to mix up groupsets let alone 3 different ones :p so RD will be force

I just switched from Shimano over to a Red/force grouppo...

Originally I went with Red brifters, Front and rear derailleurs mixed with a force chain, cassette(swapped for red) and crankset. Things changed after the first ride when I found the Original red FD had developed a crack at the weld point on the titanium cage. While I was waiting for SRAM to warrnty replace it I went ahead and upgraded to the new YAW FD and I do not regret the swap. It was worth the additional $$ on top of my original red FD.

With that said it is set up working perfectly with my 2012 red shifters and 2012 Force crankset.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n...66936773_n.jpg
ignore the post ride grit....

Save the money and go with a full 2013 Force set as they added Zero Loss into the mix and replace the FD with YAW... that is if your truly not concerned with the weight weenie penalty...

can't afford to be so :D

We all say that and then find a way to justify an upgrade somehow!

Although sometimes the price on certain things cannot be beat! IE the sale Competitive Cyclists was having earlier this year on 2012 force GXP Cranksets @125 a pop!

~Steven

The only facts you state are that Ultegra is heavier than Force, and that Ultegra is chunkier than Force in terms of its ergonomics. Your perception of Force vrs. Ultegra cranks have no merit. I believe the exact opposite is true, Force crank > Ultegra crank. Stiffer, lighter, better looking. ftw.

No, Yaw is just that much better.