I guess that was the true point (more succinctly put by you) of my post. What insights from your 20+ years of experience and knowledge would you share with a relatively uninformed friend so they could get the absolute best out of their, say, $1500 or $2000 budget? Or, what mistakes could you help them avoid?

I expect a lot of novice riders don't even realize there is a range of groupset models. I would make that clear.
What else?

correct.

SWIS (Sell What's In Stock) is a common salesman mantra, 'specially those not in it for the long-term. Selling something not in stock is guaranteed to be more time and effort put in to the sale, whereas SWIS could mean that the customer is out of your hair, allowing you to work on the next person... of course, it could come back to bite you in the ass, too...

This isn't really a "trick" and I suppose you won't have to worry about it in the $1500 to $2000 price range, but I see a lot of less expensive bikes being sold with the cheapest possible tires and brake pads. If you're shopping with your hypothetical friend, make sure the shop can swap them out for quality stuff. Recommend specific brands. Good tires and brake pads can save your life.

I would say the exact opposite of your original post, i.e. to look for the parts selections that maximize the performance of the bike without increasing the cost. In other words look for the Ultegra rear derailleur on the value-priced 105 bike because that is a upgrade worth having. I also disagree with the folks slamming FSA cranks. I know many don't approve of them, but for me they are a great, value priced substitute for the group brand parts. The bearings are excellent and the crank goes around just fine. I have never had a FD shifting problem due to an FSA crank. Not to mention I like the way they look. So for me an FSA substitution to keep the price down is appreciated. Wheels are a really important place to look. I can't say what brands to be looking for, but when you start to zero in on a bike, do some research on the wheels and tires supplied with it. That is a place where lots of money can be saved by the OEM. You want to get good, light wheels. The Tektro brake substitution is less attractive to me than the FSA crank. I would avoid that if possible. And don't forget you can always upgrade a component for a few bucks if everything else is satisfactory on your chosen bike. Just ask what would 105 brakes cost instead of Tektro for example. The difference should be relatively small.

Y'all is singular ------ all Y'all would be plural....................

I have lots of redneck friends - they straightened me out a long time ago.................. LOL

Tektro and FSA Gossamer are the favorite (junk components) spec'd on mid-level bikes when refering to "Ultegra" groupset. I saw a SRAM Force ad for a bike where only Force was the RD and chain PC1070. The rest was a mix of Rival and Apex.

Few years ago I had bought a CAAD which was labelled as 105, but had an Ultegra RD. I think that was an 'upgrade' and not a 'trick'.

I trick unsuspecting customers into buying bikes as specked by the mfgrs every day, I just wish they didn't post the specs online....Funny $#!t!

What misinformation? Like one of the other posters pointed out nothing is covered up. Anyone can see whats on the bike if they look, or download a spec sheet.

From my experience ( which is dated): the most experienced mechanics tended to build the more expensive bikes, while the new guys or less experienced folk built the entry level stuff. Not a trick, more of risk management. However, tended to make for well tuned mid to high end bikes and poorly tuned entry level bikes. So when someone test rides, many "perceived" improvements in group set are more a function of initial adjustments.

Other thing that irks me, and it is not an LBS specific thing, but a consumer ignorance thing, is that if you absolutely have to hold a budget, and have to buy an expensive item ( like a bike) along with inexpensive items ( like a helmet, pump, maybe shorts), buy the less expensive items FIRST. Human nature is bad at comparative analysis: if you have a $1200 budget, and start looking at $800 bikes, then $1000 bikes, then $1200 bikes, the $100-300 you need for sundries will mentally diminish in size, seeming small in comparison. You will blow your budget. If you buy the sundries first, you will know exactly what you spent, and an $800 bike will seem a fortune, and a $1000 bike will have to be truly discernibly different to make the stretch. You will meet your budget.

Most consumers are ignorant of their susceptibility to well played consumption strategies.

Yeah there actually is a difference in how well an ultegra RD works vs a 105/tiagra one. I'm pretty sure the ultegra one has better pulley cogs. The front derailleur works pretty much the same no matter what component level (shimano at least), the only difference is the weight.

Bikes from the major manufacturers are pretty comparable at the same price point. So really there are three things a n00b should consider:

1) Get the right kind of bike for your intended use.
2) Make sure it fits.
3) Buy it from a good shop.

In fact, #3 will help ensure that #1 and #2 are taken care of. Fretting over individual components is mostly counterproductive.

great advice.

as an employee at a bike shop that prides itself on attentive customer service and reliable, honest advice for any kind of customer, i'll echo that the only way a mismatch of component sets are a 'sales trick' is if they are sold dishonestly to the customer.

if i were to advise people in a blanket, overarching manner like this it would be to steer clear of shops that operate on commission.

there's not enough money in the bicycle industry for most people's benefit. that said, most shops try to incentivize their salespeople by operating on commission. this isn't always a bad thing but it's not the way my shop is run and i honestly think it is a detriment to the customer to want your salespeople to sell to make more money. Not only is this commission coming almost directly from the customer(you're paying for the shark-like tactics that are clouding the conversation) out of the bike's margins(potentially a bike that has less value per dollar) but the salesperson also has a reason to sugar coat every component mismatching.

I always explain to customers that are asking what components are on a bike that the rear derailleur on bikes that have a higher-spec unit on a mostly sora or altus bike is just there to make shifting feel through the chain feel less vague, shift more accurately with less propensity to fall or bend out of alignment, and deliver faster shifting without costing a lot more. Furthermore I tell them where the bikes spec has been cut cornered; an fsa crankset or tektro brakeset on a shimano bike for instance. I make sure they know that the companies do that to hit the price points of the competitors without sacrificing frame quality or other things that a smaller company just can't meet the demand of. ONLY THEN do I 'upsell' or suggest they look at something that really is full tiagra to get a better idea of what a higher component group should perform like. This kind of honest, straight-forward salesmanship is rewarded and nurtured at my shop. They want me to put people on the bike that's right for them, period... not make them feel better about a bike that isn't right.

If my shop didn't operate that way, I wouldn't still work there.

However, it is an industry-wide problem because consumer expectation has been run up by big business to try to inflate profits in an industry that is already undervalued by society at large.

The shop is more responsible for the 'sales-tricks' than a bike manufacturer.

Like when bikesdirect says "why are our prices so low? We received a very small shipment of these from Motobecane to sell to promote this exciting new model"

that's a ****ing sales trick. motobecane IS bikesdirect. that's like saying "well i got this from myself so i could sell it lower." extremely misleading.

I honestly don't know if I'll ever buy a bike from a shop I don't personally know again. There are sales tricks out there but most of them are from sleazy shops like Performance that have teleconferences every morning about how they'll sell more bikes.

You'll sell more bikes when you cultivate more honest relationships with customers and win their trust by virtue, not by deceit.

Or maybe not, because my shop isn't a huge national chain like performance... so maybe people don't want honesty afterall?



Regardless... steer clear of commission shops.

A lot of experience can't be distilled into a paragraph honestly. Long time cyclists develop a tastes whereas newbies are a clean slate. They don't know what they don't know.
Buying a complete bike from a namebrand company like Specialized, Giant, Trek, Cervelo is a pretty safe bet from a reputable bike shop.
A discerning buyer can build a bike on line...what I do...but this takes a bit of experience to know what to look for.
This board is a good filter. If your friend has his eye on a particular bike and knows the price, he can post for feedback.
Good luck.

I stand corrected

Certainly, when its just 8 grms by itself. But they add up. 105? The differences add up in small increments. 105 to Ultegra? Not so much but 105 to D/A quite a bit.
Take a 5 LBS. bag of sugar out on your next climbing ride and tell me if you notice. Then go ride without it. I went from a 19 LBS bike to a 15 LBS. bike. The difference is night and day to me.

I am always amused when someone posts a picture of a bike, and everyone drools over it with the primary consideration... the colour scheme.

Bingo. Add in tyres and you have the four things that actually enable someone to ride a bike without too many problems. A broken spoke, a badly out-of-true wheel and inferior quality tyres that are puncture or blow sidewalls easily are deal breakers for any ride.

I wonder if pstock is Pcad's troll son.. Hmph, to think of it. I troll spawning a troll..

My Raleigh Sojourn came with mixed parts like that. It's all spelled out on the spec sheet, and the bike was ordered for me. So no deception involved there. If I remember right, though, the bar-end shifters are Dura-Ace. Not sure why, maybe they don't make a low-end version of them or something. The drawback to that is that replacement shifters are disproportionately expensive.

Personally, I've never heard an actual person use "y'all" as a singular, I've only ever heard that on TV or jokes where they were making fun of people. I have heard that there really are people that use it that way, and assume it must be a Georgia thing, or some other group that is far away from me.

Trek advertises its Domane and Madone 5.2 series as "full" Shimano Ultegra

Shops are glad to do this but it's more than a relatively small amount. Tektro brakes are junk and if they are included in a new bike, most LBS stores don't want them so they won't give the buyer a credit. On the other hand 105 brakes aren't cheap and and the LBS will charge labor to switch and install new brakes.

I hate it when the LBS sales guy convinces me to wear spandex and then sleeps with my girlfriend.

Meh, brakes aren't so critical to enjoying the bike. Stick a $20 set of swissstops in some generic Tektro or other and gonna be fine for any service other than the weight-weenie.

I'm more concerned with everything that controls the chain. Chain, Crankset, Cassette, FD, RD, Shifters. There are surprisingly few bikes that have this from the factory.

I try to advise people based on what I think their level will be. Someone on a budget, who just wants to pedal around town, probably has no desire to ride more than 10-20 miles: Cheapest sora bike.

Someone who is/was a runner, or other athlete, a more driven, groups rides in mind, but still on a tight budget. Aim for those six components being 105 or greater. Has trim in both directions, Tiagra didn't previously, (dunno about the new 10spd). 105 has less plastic bits, it's more robust.