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Campy vs Shimano

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Old 08-19-13 | 05:59 AM
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Campy vs Shimano

I've done a bit of searching, but don't feel I've found a concise answer for my specific question...

I have a bike with a SRAM (10sp) RD, Shimano FD, and SRAM cassette that needs shifters. I would like to give Campy Ergo shifters a try (theoretically also 10sp) but wondering if it would work.

I've seen the Jtek adapters, but those seem to only convert pull ratio: i.e. Campy shifter, Shimano derailleur, Campy cassette.

Just considering options, not jumping into anything.

Your help is appreciated!
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Old 08-19-13 | 06:23 AM
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What are you worried about other than pull ratio?..you need a Jtek. They should have the converter you need if you check their website..Will it be perfect with Jtek?...not as good as Campy everything because Campy uses a graduated cable pull (detent spacing in index wheel isn't uniform by design unlike Sram) and Campy uses slightly varied rear cog spacing i.e. different size cassette spacers to match their shifter indexing. Brake pull compatibility should be close enough.
It should work ok tho.
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Old 08-19-13 | 06:43 AM
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Edisme - I tried to do this with my cross bike, using Campy 10spd ergo shifters and a shimano 10speed drivetrain. I installed it and it didnt work (meaning i had about 8 gears outta 10 that didnt chatter), so i can concede some user error. then i took to a bike shop and asked them to set it up with the instructions i had. It worked better, but not consistently. Meaning....on the upshifts i had all 10 gears, but shifting down the cassette, it always skipped one of the middle gears.... took it back and they blamed the 'spring rate' of the shimano derailers....

This past spring i just bit the bullet and bought a campy chorus 11sp and installed it.. works perfectly.

The jtek cam device is like my advice...... you can take it - cause i aint'a using it....

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Old 08-19-13 | 07:23 AM
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OP, you must have very little aggravation in your life that you go out looking for more. Much more. Shifters are by far the most expensive part of the transmission (not counting the crank). If you can spring for a Campy brand shifter/lever, all you need for this thing to shift really well is a Campy rear derailleur and a Campy cassette. Go down the line to where you can afford and just do it. A cockamamie setup mixing Shimano, SRAM, and Campy will never make you happy. Unless, that is, being unhappy is what makes you happy. There are lots of folks out there like that. Oh, and by the way, all you would need to finish off the setup right would the front derailleur. Be a sport and spring for that too. Your therapist will thank you.
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Old 08-19-13 | 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
OP, you must have very little aggravation in your life that you go out looking for more. Much more. Shifters are by far the most expensive part of the transmission (not counting the crank). If you can spring for a Campy brand shifter/lever, all you need for this thing to shift really well is a Campy rear derailleur and a Campy cassette. Go down the line to where you can afford and just do it. A cockamamie setup mixing Shimano, SRAM, and Campy will never make you happy. Unless, that is, being unhappy is what makes you happy. There are lots of folks out there like that. Oh, and by the way, all you would need to finish off the setup right would the front derailleur. Be a sport and spring for that too. Your therapist will thank you.
While I agree with you in philosophy not to mix drivelines...I personally don't, in practice there is the elephant in the room which is the wheelset on the bike. Many wheelsets are not convertible from Sram/Shimano to Campy without rebuilding the rear wheel with new hub. This is because the freehubs are different length. There are conversion cassettes available as well...Campy like that will fit on a Shimano hub and many say they work fine but comes back to philosophy. Groupset makers design their stuff to work with their stuff...though there is Shimano/Sram freehub compatibility..the same design.
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Old 08-19-13 | 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
If you can spring for a Campy brand shifter/lever, all you need for this thing to shift really well is a Campy rear derailleur and a Campy cassette.
Don't forget a Campy freehub (and likely a re-dish) for the rear wheel assuming that's even an option for his wheelset. Otherwise, it's a whole new rear wheel, or a conversion cassette (Campy spacing with Shimano spline pattern).
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Old 08-19-13 | 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by joejack951
Don't forget a Campy freehub (and likely a re-dish) for the rear wheel assuming that's even an option for his wheelset. Otherwise, it's a whole new rear wheel, or a conversion cassette (Campy spacing with Shimano spline pattern).
I just reminded him of that.
And then there is 11s...where Shimano and eventually Sram break out with a new wheelset from their 10s. More profit for $himano.
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Old 08-19-13 | 07:52 AM
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You could buy a conversion cassette such as American Classic and Campy RD, then keep your Shimano wheels. Then you should not have any problems. I use the cassette on my Shimano Powertap hub with Campy drivetrain. Works perfectly.
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Old 08-19-13 | 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
While I agree with you in philosophy not to mix drivelines...I personally don't, in practice there is the elephant in the room which is the wheelset on the bike. Many wheelsets are not convertible from Sram/Shimano to Campy without rebuilding the rear wheel with new hub. This is because the freehubs are different length. There are conversion cassettes available as well...Campy like that will fit on a Shimano hub and many say they work fine but comes back to philosophy. Groupset makers design their stuff to work with their stuff...though there is Shimano/Sram freehub compatibility..the same design.
No doubt, but it is OP who wants to do it. If Campy shifters are so important to him, then a few "adjustments" to make it possible should not be out of line. A new rear wheel or rebuild just might be one of those. No matter how much has to be done to make it perfect, that doesn't negate the pitfalls of trying to fake it. I don't disagree with you, but do stand by my position that the Franken setup is more trouble than it is worth. The matching setup is trouble too or at least cost, but it is worth it , because the results will justify the effort.
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Old 08-19-13 | 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
I just reminded him of that.
Yeah, we posted during the same minutes. Great minds...

As rpenman notes, all of this isn't really that big of a deal to get to a full Campy setup. I'm contemplating the same thing for two of my bikes which are currently 9 and 10 speed Ultegra. They both have American Classic rear hubs which are easily converted to Campy with a freehub swap. I've been debating about how far to go though as Jteks would make the conversion much cheaper (all I really care about are the shifters after all). I'll make up my mind some day.
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Old 08-19-13 | 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by EdIsMe
I've done a bit of searching, but don't feel I've found a concise answer for my specific question...

I have a bike with a SRAM (10sp) RD, Shimano FD, and SRAM cassette that needs shifters. I would like to give Campy Ergo shifters a try (theoretically also 10sp) but wondering if it would work.

I've seen the Jtek adapters, but those seem to only convert pull ratio: i.e. Campy shifter, Shimano derailleur, Campy cassette.

Just considering options, not jumping into anything.

Your help is appreciated!
OP, I have not done it personally, but several big internet names, including Zinn IIRC, say that Campy Ergo's paired with a SRAM RD will generate Shimano 10 speed spacing. Where everyone above says that you need a shiftmate, I do not recall seeing a shiftmate for Campy to SRAM RD, but I haven't looked in awhile.

If you look at cx based articles, this arrangement is more popular in that field, because Campy Ergos are cheaper than anyone elses, and SRAM RD's are less expensive than Campy RD's. Also, you will see info on using a Shimano RD, cable routed hubub, to get 9 speeds out of 10 speed ergos.
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Old 08-19-13 | 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by joejack951
Yeah, we posted during the same minutes. Great minds...

As rpenman notes, all of this isn't really that big of a deal to get to a full Campy setup. I'm contemplating the same thing for two of my bikes which are currently 9 and 10 speed Ultegra. They both have American Classic rear hubs which are easily converted to Campy with a freehub swap. I've been debating about how far to go though as Jteks would make the conversion much cheaper (all I really care about are the shifters after all). I'll make up my mind some day.
Thing about today is...it has never been more complex. A good thing to have so many options. Advent of Shimano 11shas really changed things for deciding what to do because new Ultegra and DA 11s are so good and Sram will be 11s sound and a terrific alternative as well with the changes they have made to ergos and shift quality.
For example you may have to tweak your wheel dish if you go to a Shimano 11s hub on your AC's...likely won't have to if pasting on a Campy freehub.
Best position is have a hub that can be converted like you do. The factory Fulcrum wheels I ride are convertible as well.
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Old 08-19-13 | 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Homebrew01
You could buy a conversion cassette such as American Classic and Campy RD, then keep your Shimano wheels. Then you should not have any problems. I use the cassette on my Shimano Powertap hub with Campy drivetrain. Works perfectly.
Except...OP would need a Campy rear derailleur for the right indexing which comes full circle back to Jtek.
For you...a good solution with your Powertap.
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Old 08-19-13 | 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by RollCNY
OP, I have not done it personally, but several big internet names, including Zinn IIRC, say that Campy Ergo's paired with a SRAM RD will generate Shimano 10 speed spacing. Where everyone above says that you need a shiftmate, I do not recall seeing a shiftmate for Campy to SRAM RD, but I haven't looked in awhile.

If you look at cx based articles, this arrangement is more popular in that field, because Campy Ergos are cheaper than anyone elses, and SRAM RD's are less expensive than Campy RD's. Also, you will see info on using a Shimano RD, cable routed hubub, to get 9 speeds out of 10 speed ergos.
You're a smart guy Roll and I like reading your posts. Believe you maybe right about that and good catch. Jtek's website should shows all the combinations that work together.

Campy's pull ratio is 2.5 for first five shifts and then goes to 2.8mm for last four. Sram 10s pulls an even 3mm per shift. But...cassette cog spacing is a bit different which may help this lack of agreement. It may be plug and play as you say with no need for jtek.
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Old 08-19-13 | 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
You're a smart guy Roll and I like reading your posts. Believe you maybe right about that and good catch. Jtek's website should shows all the combinations that work together.

Campy's pull ratio is 2.5 for first five shifts and then goes to 2.8mm for last four. Sram 10s pulls an even 3mm per shift. But...cassette cog spacing is a bit different which may help this lack of agreement. It may be plug and play as you say with no need for jtek.
I know about the switch up with Campy's ratio, which is why I mentally filed away the comments about Ergos with SRAM RD working very well. Its one of those that on paper would seem problematic, but there is positive press about it working swimmingly. IIRC, there is also a tandem builder who uses that arrangement as their stock shipping condition. Their name escapes me.
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Old 08-19-13 | 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by RollCNY
I know about the switch up with Campy's ratio, which is why I mentally filed away the comments about Ergos with SRAM RD working very well. Its one of those that on paper would seem problematic, but there is positive press about it working swimmingly. IIRC, there is also a tandem builder who uses that arrangement as their stock shipping condition. Their name escapes me.
Well if you think about shift compatibility is three things:

1. How much cable is pulled per each shift. A bit more complex for Campy because cable pull isn't the same for all shifts. Believe Shimano adapted graduated shift pull as well for their new 11s offerings...smelled the coffee

2. How much the rear derailleur traverses per linear pull of the cable. RD's are not the same either...they move a different amount passed upon parallelogram spacing and pivot pull...you mention the 10>9 spd. kluge due to changing the cable attachment point.

3. Cassette spacing. Shimano/Sram freehub and cassette are narrower than Campy...so spacing between cogs is tighter.

In summary its the aggregate of all three working together. This is why intuition doesn't always work on compatibility as in this case...why would Campy ergos effectively shift a Sram RD and Shimano/Sram cassette? Simple answer is because what disparity exists between Campy ergo lever cable pull and how much the Sram RD moves over for each shift... is compensated by tighter cassette cog spacing of Shimano/Sram versus Campy.
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Old 08-19-13 | 10:25 AM
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The final determination, then, is that 10sp Campy Ergo shifters + SRAM 10sp RD + Shimano 10sp cassette would work without Jtek?

If I remember correctly, I believe Shimano and SRAM 10sp share the same cassette spacing.

In all reality, (points at flamethrowers), this is just a hypothetical discussion. The bike in question currently has a SRAM/Shimano TT setup (road frame with aerobar, tt shifters, etc) that I was considering converting back to a road bike. (Need for another road bike exceeds need for a dedicated TT bike at the moment).

As far as trouble in my life goes, I have plenty... but sometimes it's fun to poke the flame.
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Old 08-19-13 | 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by EdIsMe
The final determination, then, is that 10sp Campy Ergo shifters + SRAM 10sp RD + Shimano 10sp cassette would work without Jtek?
Internet wisdom (oxymoron) says that that equation is correct.
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Old 08-19-13 | 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by EdIsMe
The final determination, then, is that 10sp Campy Ergo shifters + SRAM 10sp RD + Shimano 10sp cassette would work without Jtek?

If I remember correctly, I believe Shimano and SRAM 10sp share the same cassette spacing.

In all reality, (points at flamethrowers), this is just a hypothetical discussion. The bike in question currently has a SRAM/Shimano TT setup (road frame with aerobar, tt shifters, etc) that I was considering converting back to a road bike. (Need for another road bike exceeds need for a dedicated TT bike at the moment).

As far as trouble in my life goes, I have plenty... but sometimes it's fun to poke the flame.
Go to Jtek site and send them an email asking about your exact config. I do not see Sram compatibility referenced but no doubt they know and maybe it just isn't published.
https://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.php
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Old 08-19-13 | 10:51 AM
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Just had another look at their website and it seems Jtek ShiftMate Model #3 has the following configuration:
Campy 10sp + Shimano 10sp RD + Shimano 10sp Cassette

Also, Model #4 offers:
Campy 11sp + Shimano 10sp RD + Shimano 10sp Cassette

The question of whether it would perform without the jtek adapter remains to be answered succinctly, but I don't intend to strangle anyone over it.
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Old 08-19-13 | 10:59 AM
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Neither of those answers the question you are asking. Where a SRAM cassette is interchangeable with a Shimano cassette, a SRAM RD is NOT interchangeable with a Shimano RD.

I have used the Model #3 as your first sentence says. Veloce 10 speed shifters, 105 RD, 105 cassette, and JTEK #3 , and it all worked. I could have just as easily used 10 speed Veloce, SRAM Rival RD, and 105 cassette with no JTEK.

Perhaps JTEK's sight doesn't list a Campy Sram combo because it is unnecessary.
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Old 08-19-13 | 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by RollCNY
Neither of those answers the question you are asking. Where a SRAM cassette is interchangeable with a Shimano cassette, a SRAM RD is NOT interchangeable with a Shimano RD.

I have used the Model #3 as your first sentence says. Veloce 10 speed shifters, 105 RD, 105 cassette, and JTEK #3 , and it all worked. I could have just as easily used 10 speed Veloce, SRAM Rival RD, and 105 cassette with no JTEK.

Perhaps JTEK's sight doesn't list a Campy Sram combo because it is unnecessary.
One doesn't know until one asks I told the OP what to do.
You know the old saying Roll...you can lead a horse to water...
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