Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Saddle position...KOPS... ********?

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Saddle position...KOPS... ********?

Old 09-12-13, 01:33 PM
  #1  
crewdoglm
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 63

Bikes: De Rosa Idol, Felt TK-2, Pinarello Paris, Williams Gemini alloy, Basso Astra, Basso Laguna, Bottecchia Leggendaria, Cinelli SSCX, Argon 18 Electron track, 60-70 wheels

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Saddle position...KOPS... ********?

I've long suspected that Knee-Over-The-Pedal-Spindle as measured with a plumb line has no basis in real science. Keith Bontrager's essay pretty much confirmed this for me. https://sheldonbrown.com/kops.html That aside, does anyone know where exactly are we supposed to hold the plumb line? The leading edge of the knee cap does not seem to be the mechanical center or fulcrum of the knee and neither does the Tibial Tuberosity below the knee cap. I find that pretty much anywhere I hang that pendulum on my knee, the line falls very close to the pedal spindle. That is true on a road, track, and CX bike with three different crank arm lengths and differing seat setbacks. If the "correct" position of that line is a matter of millimeters, then the point where the plumb line originates needs to also be exact. I am really wondering HOW to assess the bio-mechanical impact i.e., what is most efficient and least likely to injure?
crewdoglm is offline  
Old 09-12-13, 02:42 PM
  #2  
oldbobcat
Senior Member
 
oldbobcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Boulder County, CO
Posts: 3,880

Bikes: '79 Gios, '80 Masi, '06 Felt, early '60s Frejus

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 334 Post(s)
Liked 273 Times in 205 Posts
French rider and coach Cyrille Guimard fit himself and his riders considerably behind KOPS. He said this put the hamstrings in position to apply more power. Of his most successful riders, Hinault, LeMond, and Fignon, only Fignon never had knee problems.

Australian fitter Steve Hogg says don't worry about the knee's relation to the pedal spindle because it's all about balance. That is, after setting the saddle height, the hips should be no farther forward than what's comfortable for the back muscles to support the torso without the help of the arms, and then readjust the saddle height. Once the torso is comfortably balanced and not causing excessive energy expenditure, the legs will adapt to the position and use that saved energy to turn the cranks more effectively. This philosophy has been working for me since the late 1970s. Because I still have a swimmer's torso, this puts me a little behind KOPS. And I don't have knee problems.

The thing about pedaling a bicycle is that it's a dynamic activity, the body adapts, and getting too precise about static hip angles and knee positions can be a dead end.
oldbobcat is offline  
Old 09-12-13, 02:51 PM
  #3  
Bah Humbug
serious cyclist
 
Bah Humbug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 19,187

Bikes: S1, R2, P2

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8097 Post(s)
Liked 2,890 Times in 1,546 Posts
KOPS hurts my back. Every single time. I won't let shops that use it fit me anymore.
Bah Humbug is offline  
Old 09-12-13, 03:01 PM
  #4  
banerjek
Portland Fred
 
banerjek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,548

Bikes: Custom Winter, Challenge Seiran SL, Fuji Team Pro, Cattrike Road/Velokit, РOS hybrid

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 33 Posts
Originally Posted by oldbobcat View Post
French rider and coach Cyrille Guimard fit himself and his riders considerably behind KOPS. He said this put the hamstrings in position to apply more power.
I have yet to meet a 'bent rider who doesn't fit himself way, way behind KOPS
banerjek is offline  
Old 09-12-13, 03:11 PM
  #5  
Looigi
Senior Member
 
Looigi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
KOPS hurts my back. Every single time. I won't let shops that use it fit me anymore.
What do you find to be an acceptable method and where does that put your knee with respect to the crank/BB?
Looigi is offline  
Old 09-12-13, 03:14 PM
  #6  
Looigi
Senior Member
 
Looigi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by banerjek View Post
I have yet to meet a 'bent rider who doesn't fit himself way, way behind KOPS
Here's one that's way way ahead of KOPs. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24015622
Looigi is offline  
Old 09-12-13, 03:18 PM
  #7  
Bah Humbug
serious cyclist
 
Bah Humbug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 19,187

Bikes: S1, R2, P2

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8097 Post(s)
Liked 2,890 Times in 1,546 Posts
Originally Posted by Looigi View Post
What do you find to be an acceptable method and where does that put your knee with respect to the crank/BB?
I sprang for a Retul at a great shop and they helped me tweak it a bit after feedback. I honestly have no idea where my knee is relative to the BB, sorry. The shop didn't do that and I wasn't curious.
Bah Humbug is offline  
Old 09-12-13, 03:19 PM
  #8  
oldbobcat
Senior Member
 
oldbobcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Boulder County, CO
Posts: 3,880

Bikes: '79 Gios, '80 Masi, '06 Felt, early '60s Frejus

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 334 Post(s)
Liked 273 Times in 205 Posts
Originally Posted by banerjek View Post
I have yet to meet a 'bent rider who doesn't fit himself way, way behind KOPS
Ha ha. But they don't have to worry about using their back muscles now, do they?
oldbobcat is offline  
Old 09-12-13, 03:23 PM
  #9  
Campag4life
Voice of the Industry
 
Campag4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1187 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by oldbobcat View Post
French rider and coach Cyrille Guimard fit himself and his riders considerably behind KOPS. He said this put the hamstrings in position to apply more power. Of his most successful riders, Hinault, LeMond, and Fignon, only Fignon never had knee problems.

Australian fitter Steve Hogg says don't worry about the knee's relation to the pedal spindle because it's all about balance. That is, after setting the saddle height, the hips should be no farther forward than what's comfortable for the back muscles to support the torso without the help of the arms, and then readjust the saddle height. Once the torso is comfortably balanced and not causing excessive energy expenditure, the legs will adapt to the position and use that saved energy to turn the cranks more effectively. This philosophy has been working for me since the late 1970s. Because I still have a swimmer's torso, this puts me a little behind KOPS. And I don't have knee problems.

The thing about pedaling a bicycle is that it's a dynamic activity, the body adapts, and getting too precise about static hip angles and knee positions can be a dead end.
This ^^^
Really well articulated and same for me. I also ride well behind KOPS. I completely agree with what you wrote. I also train on a 29er with flatbar. Last night, I brought my allen wrench on my ride and fooled around with setback on the bike. I was pretty astounded as to the difference in my power and balance between forward and aft saddle position. I believe those that blindly adhere to KOPS or believe they need to be in front of KOPS to open their hip angle, they are missing out.
Campag4life is offline  
Old 09-12-13, 03:34 PM
  #10  
oldbobcat
Senior Member
 
oldbobcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Boulder County, CO
Posts: 3,880

Bikes: '79 Gios, '80 Masi, '06 Felt, early '60s Frejus

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 334 Post(s)
Liked 273 Times in 205 Posts
I might add that the other part of the Guimard formula was long cranks, bigger gears, and lower cadences. In my mind this caused more problems than the saddle setback.
oldbobcat is offline  
Old 09-12-13, 04:51 PM
  #11  
pdxtex
Portland, OR, USA
 
pdxtex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: portland
Posts: 1,626

Bikes: kona paddywagon, trek 2.1, lemond nevada city, gt zrx

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
fore aft saddle position has long been a puzzler for me. ive tried kops with so so results so for me its been 1) adjust seat height by lemond formula 2) try KOPS and adjust as necessary. i make adjustments based on saddle feel. if it feels like its chaffing, i know the wide part of the side is pushed to far forward. if it feels like im sitting on a broomstick i know its pushed back too far back. ive found it helpful to use the same saddle if you have multiple bikes. i only use specialized romin evos now and have found that saddle 3 inches behind the bottom bracket is my perfect number. from there i adjust stem length and height depending on my fitness at the time. a little less bendy after a few weeks in winter, i might use a shorter, taller stem for a bit.

Last edited by pdxtex; 09-12-13 at 04:55 PM.
pdxtex is offline  
Old 09-12-13, 05:16 PM
  #12  
crewdoglm
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 63

Bikes: De Rosa Idol, Felt TK-2, Pinarello Paris, Williams Gemini alloy, Basso Astra, Basso Laguna, Bottecchia Leggendaria, Cinelli SSCX, Argon 18 Electron track, 60-70 wheels

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Agreed...thanks

Originally Posted by oldbobcat View Post
I might add that the other part of the Guimard formula was long cranks, bigger gears, and lower cadences. In my mind this caused more problems than the saddle setback.
I am with you on big gears and low cadence. (I was raised in the 100 RPM school.) Also, I have to say I don't get why we would want MORE hamstring involvement i.e., sitting further back. Further back = less quadriceps at the top of the stroke right? (Guys can do huge numbers on seated leg press and squat which uses quadriceps and hips but nobody does more than 100 pounds in a hamstring curl.) I feel more powerful directly over the cranks but then I'm a track rider from way back.
crewdoglm is offline  
Old 09-12-13, 06:11 PM
  #13  
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Posts: 10,122

Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
KOPS is not about fit, it's about weight distribution and body orientation. Fit is about leg extension and hip angle, neither of which are related to KOPS. Where KOPS comes in is in setting saddle setback and handlebar height. For your average built average road racing cyclist, KOPS gives you a rule of thumb that makes for a good tradeoff between handling, power generation, and aerodynamics. It makes for kind of a neutral, flatland road racer position.

Different fits for different uses. For example:
  • My sprint track bike has very low bars and the saddle is pretty far forward; my knee is a little forward of my pedal spindle. It means I support more weight on my arms and the front wheel carries more load; this affects the handling, but I want the aerodynamics and the power generation of a closed hip angle.
    .
  • Time trialists are similar except they want their saddles a little further forward to open the hip a bit more. Triathletes are an extreme example because they want the bars low and a very open hip (so they don't fatigue the running muscles), meaning their saddles are even further forward and they have even more weight on the bars.
    .
  • Climbing specialists and recreational cyclists tend to want their weight back and their hips open, so their knees are likely to be behind the pedal spindle.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 09-12-13 at 06:26 PM.
Brian Ratliff is offline  
Old 09-12-13, 07:16 PM
  #14  
datlas 
Should Be More Popular
 
datlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 39,927

Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 539 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19584 Post(s)
Liked 6,245 Times in 3,024 Posts
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
KOPS is not about fit, it's about weight distribution and body orientation. Fit is about leg extension and hip angle, neither of which are related to KOPS. Where KOPS comes in is in setting saddle setback and handlebar height. For your average built average road racing cyclist, KOPS gives you a rule of thumb that makes for a good tradeoff between handling, power generation, and aerodynamics. It makes for kind of a neutral, flatland road racer position.

Different fits for different uses. For example:
  • My sprint track bike has very low bars and the saddle is pretty far forward; my knee is a little forward of my pedal spindle. It means I support more weight on my arms and the front wheel carries more load; this affects the handling, but I want the aerodynamics and the power generation of a closed hip angle.
    .
  • Time trialists are similar except they want their saddles a little further forward to open the hip a bit more. Triathletes are an extreme example because they want the bars low and a very open hip (so they don't fatigue the running muscles), meaning their saddles are even further forward and they have even more weight on the bars.
    .
  • Climbing specialists and recreational cyclists tend to want their weight back and their hips open, so their knees are likely to be behind the pedal spindle.
Well stated.
__________________
Originally Posted by rjones28 View Post
Addiction is all about class.
datlas is offline  
Old 09-12-13, 07:18 PM
  #15  
emveezee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
So, are you in front or behind KOPS? Or maybe you are exactly at KOPS because you have no clue?

Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
I sprang for a Retul at a great shop and they helped me tweak it a bit after feedback. I honestly have no idea where my knee is relative to the BB, sorry. The shop didn't do that and I wasn't curious.
emveezee is offline  
Old 09-12-13, 07:33 PM
  #16  
crewdoglm
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 63

Bikes: De Rosa Idol, Felt TK-2, Pinarello Paris, Williams Gemini alloy, Basso Astra, Basso Laguna, Bottecchia Leggendaria, Cinelli SSCX, Argon 18 Electron track, 60-70 wheels

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
KOPS is not about fit, it's about weight distribution and body orientation. Fit is about leg extension and hip angle, neither of which are related to KOPS. Where KOPS comes in is in setting saddle setback and handlebar height. For your average built average road racing cyclist, KOPS gives you a rule of thumb that makes for a good tradeoff between handling, power generation, and aerodynamics. It makes for kind of a neutral, flatland road racer position.

Different fits for different uses. For example:
  • My sprint track bike has very low bars and the saddle is pretty far forward; my knee is a little forward of my pedal spindle. It means I support more weight on my arms and the front wheel carries more load; this affects the handling, but I want the aerodynamics and the power generation of a closed hip angle.
    .
  • Time trialists are similar except they want their saddles a little further forward to open the hip a bit more. Triathletes are an extreme example because they want the bars low and a very open hip (so they don't fatigue the running muscles), meaning their saddles are even further forward and they have even more weight on the bars.
    .
  • Climbing specialists and recreational cyclists tend to want their weight back and their hips open, so their knees are likely to be behind the pedal spindle.
Thanks Brian. That explanation makes sense but of course KOPS is often set forth as being precisely about fit. The human leg & foot connected to a crank is basically 4 separate moment arms of different lengths acting in a circle - slightly complicated. KOPS has been presented for years like some optimal answer to that mechanical calculus rather than simple body position. I'm interested in optimal leverage etc...the geeky part. Not sure how old you are but when I was racing 25 years ago, we were cutting lawns for entry fees and gas. I couldn't be concerned with esoteric stuff but it's interesting now. I have tried to get all my bikes to have the same position but the hips-relative-to-BB is tougher. Anyway thanks for the thoughts.
crewdoglm is offline  
Old 09-12-13, 07:40 PM
  #17  
pdedes
ka maté ka maté ka ora
 
pdedes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: wessex
Posts: 4,423

Bikes: breezer venturi - red novo bosberg - red, pedal force cg1 - red, neuvation f-100 - da, devinci phantom - xt, miele piste - miche/campy, bianchi reparto corse sbx, concorde squadra tsx - da, miele team issue sl - ultegra

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Kops for many is an appropriate rule of thumb to generate a departure point.
pdedes is offline  
Old 09-12-13, 10:58 PM
  #18  
Nick Bain
Senior Member
 
Nick Bain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Driftless
Posts: 1,832

Bikes: Caad8, Mukluk 3, Trek Superfly, Gary Fisher Irwin.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Don't read anything, fit your bike and shoes how it feels best as long as you know the adjustments and how to tweak them. Reading anything about fit guidlines can be such a waste of time and can result in questioning your best judgement. IMHO.
Nick Bain is offline  
Old 09-13-13, 05:37 AM
  #19  
roadwarrior
Senior Member
 
roadwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Someplace trying to figure it out
Posts: 10,664

Bikes: Cannondale EVO, CAAD9, Giant cross bike.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
KOPS is not about fit, it's about weight distribution and body orientation. Fit is about leg extension and hip angle, neither of which are related to KOPS. Where KOPS comes in is in setting saddle setback and handlebar height. For your average built average road racing cyclist, KOPS gives you a rule of thumb that makes for a good tradeoff between handling, power generation, and aerodynamics. It makes for kind of a neutral, flatland road racer position.

Different fits for different uses. For example:
  • My sprint track bike has very low bars and the saddle is pretty far forward; my knee is a little forward of my pedal spindle. It means I support more weight on my arms and the front wheel carries more load; this affects the handling, but I want the aerodynamics and the power generation of a closed hip angle.
    .
  • Time trialists are similar except they want their saddles a little further forward to open the hip a bit more. Triathletes are an extreme example because they want the bars low and a very open hip (so they don't fatigue the running muscles), meaning their saddles are even further forward and they have even more weight on the bars.
    .
  • Climbing specialists and recreational cyclists tend to want their weight back and their hips open, so their knees are likely to be behind the pedal spindle.
MAy I say it is refreshing to read an actual post with real usuable information.

Thank you. They are few and far between.

KOPS is a starting point.
roadwarrior is offline  
Old 09-13-13, 10:32 AM
  #20  
Long Tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Go Ducks!
Posts: 1,549
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well, I moved my seat back last night (from a nominal KOPS position) after reading this thread. In my case it's to try to mitigate hand numbness; moving it back seemed to put my torso in a more balanced position. Less weight on my hands.

We'll see how it feels on today's ride. Really, my knees have been my primary concern; I've ramped up very steeply this summer and pushed through some knee irritation in the process. My fit tweaks so far have mostly been with that in mind.

Will report back what I feel. My seat is now as far back as she'll go. Then again, I'm a very tall lanky fellow.
Long Tom is offline  
Old 09-13-13, 11:28 AM
  #21  
cyclezen
OM boy
 
cyclezen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Goleta CA
Posts: 4,164

Bikes: a bunch

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 434 Post(s)
Liked 508 Times in 352 Posts
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
KOPS is not about fit, it's about weight distribution and body orientation. Fit is about leg extension and hip angle, neither of which are related to KOPS. Where KOPS comes in is in setting saddle setback and handlebar height. For your average built average road racing cyclist, KOPS gives you a rule of thumb that makes for a good tradeoff between handling, power generation, and aerodynamics. It makes for kind of a neutral, flatland road racer position.

Different fits for different uses. For example:
  • My sprint track bike has very low bars and the saddle is pretty far forward; my knee is a little forward of my pedal spindle. It means I support more weight on my arms and the front wheel carries more load; this affects the handling, but I want the aerodynamics and the power generation of a closed hip angle.
    .
  • Time trialists are similar except they want their saddles a little further forward to open the hip a bit more. Triathletes are an extreme example because they want the bars low and a very open hip (so they don't fatigue the running muscles), meaning their saddles are even further forward and they have even more weight on the bars.
    .
  • Climbing specialists and recreational cyclists tend to want their weight back and their hips open, so their knees are likely to be behind the pedal spindle.
Originally Posted by pdedes View Post
Kops for many is an appropriate rule of thumb to generate a departure point.
glad I waited... BUTT, BUTT, BUTT, Brian you didn;t say anything about crit ratz (track rat with road rash...)...
just kiddin...

wow, been a long time since KOPS last paid a visit... so itz time for bar thru axle...
cyclezen is offline  
Old 09-13-13, 12:14 PM
  #22  
I <3 Robots
Senior Member
 
I <3 Robots's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: So Cal
Posts: 1,657

Bikes: Cervelo S2, Workswell 062, Banshee Spitfire

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Ratliff sums it up pretty well. Its a good starting point. I use the KOPS method...because well...that's actually where my body eventually settles. Sliding the saddle back...hurts my lower back.

The other explanations about not using KOPS is more confusing than helpful.
I <3 Robots is offline  
Old 09-13-13, 12:38 PM
  #23  
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Posts: 10,122

Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by oldbobcat View Post
French rider and coach Cyrille Guimard fit himself and his riders considerably behind KOPS. He said this put the hamstrings in position to apply more power. Of his most successful riders, Hinault, LeMond, and Fignon, only Fignon never had knee problems.

...
Guimard likely was moving the saddle back to close the hip angle which activates the hamstrings and the glutes. Remember at that time, bikes were only build a certain way and had relatively high bars compared to modern road bikes. They didn't have the option of dropping the bars to close the hip angle. Open hip angles (high bar + forward saddle, or knee in front of pedal spindle), stress mostly the quads. The more closed your hip angle, the more power you can put into your pedals because you activate three muscle groups instead of one. On the other hand, it is harder to breath and so it somewhat limits your aerobic output.

The trick is to balance these out. Road sprinters and flat lander rolleur types are relatively neutral to closed hip angle. Climbers have an open angle they can then close by sitting on the back of the saddle if they need the power (they get away with this because their torque to the pedals is relatively low during a climb; power riders have to make their upper body super rigid to drive power into the pedals and so have no choice but to sit on the front of the saddle - hence the term "on the rivet"). Where position your body over your bike depends a lot on your strengths and goals for your riding.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 09-13-13 at 12:43 PM.
Brian Ratliff is offline  
Old 09-13-13, 03:08 PM
  #24  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 18,787

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 113 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3531 Post(s)
Liked 1,526 Times in 1,112 Posts
KOPS is a starting point. For me and fellow riders I've checked, the most common thing for road bike position is to drop the plumb bob from the bony protrusion on the front of the knee just below the knee cap. From there, mess about until you seem to be developing your best climbing power with your current musculature, assuming a road bike fit. Since there are so many different sorts of bikes and therefore different sorts of fits, I doubt that one fit is more prone to injury than another. And "efficiency" is too loose a term to even enter the discussion. You want power at LT or FTP. That can be measured.
Carbonfiberboy is online now  
Old 09-13-13, 06:09 PM
  #25  
Cookiemonsta
Senior Member
 
Cookiemonsta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 533
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I also think this is a sensible position that provides a good way to start, but can and probably should be adjusted to one's particular anatomy and style over time, as you learn what is comfortable for you. Honestly, I do not put too much weight in these "rule of thumb" positions. Not that they are useless or untrue, but they are just general guidelines to give you a ballpark-correct fit.
Cookiemonsta is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.