In my experience, it depends on what we're calling a moderate social ride.

The "C", or Social club riders around here aen't going to have a pace line related crash because they don't ride in pacelines. Their group rides consist of a bunch of riders riding pretty far from each other and not drafting.

I do believe the "B" club rides, and even the recreational "A" club rides around here are more dangerous, than the race training rides that generally consist of more skilled riders.

On the club rides, you'll see pace line incidents reasonably frequently from poor riding skills, inattention, people pressing over their heads.

On the race training rides, accidents are more rare, because most of the riders have better bike handling skills, and are used to riding not just in pacelines, but in packs. Hoever, when accidents do happen on the fast rides they tend to be fairly dramatic.

How common is it to crash just riding solo, taking turns and descents slowly? I think you could go a very long time without crashing riding solo. It's been so long for me, I can't recall the last time I crashed that wasn't in a race, or a competitive training ride.

How common is it to crash in a group ride? Unfortunately, it happens fairly frequently. I had 3 friends in the hospital in the last year with crashes in group rides, two with mild to moderate brain injuries. I don't think I've ever done an organized century where there wasn't a crash or two, and on the large club rides around here, I'd bet there's at least a 10% chance that someone crashes in any given ride.

I don't think the risk is overwhelming, or unmanageable, but if you're suceptible to a second head injury, and may have limited cognitive skills from the first that impair your reactions, I think it's quite reasonable to be concerned about the issue.

Firstly, I wouldn't let any injury prevent you from enjoying what you love and I would give up worrying about wrecking and what it may do to you.

Secondly, pace lines can be safe but i am picky on who I ride with if I can help it. I would not want to ride with you for my own safety.

This is in no means meant to be argumentative.

All of the crashes I have been in have been solo, low speed, failure to unclip, or car impact (right hook that I saw coming). None of them have been group rides. Of the three riders I mentioned earlier with head injuries, all were aggressive solo riders on training rides, only one on a descent overcooking a turn. The other two were traffic / road condition related.


If there was a 10% chance of crashing on a group ride, I would never attend one. I totally agree with your comment of crashes on large organized rides, but those are recipes for disaster, with everyone wanting a 5 hour century regardless of their skill or conditioning. In riding with the same group twice a weekend for four years, there have been a handful of accidents and no injuries. Definitely some near misses, and 3 guys taken out by one car, but I don't see the OP's condition making him more prone to car hits.

I totally agree with this statement (after reflection), not because of the frailty of his melon, but because his reduced cognitive response time is dangerous to others and himself. I do not believe someone should give up pace lines for fear of injury, but I do believe they should respect physical limitations that compromise their ability.

Let me take a stab at this.

Your last question first - to absolutely minimize your risk you shouldn't ride your bike. To absolutely minimize risk to myself I shouldn't leave the house, and in fact I'd feel more comfortable living in a house with no tall trees next to it (one big branch fell into the side of the house a few years ago). Acceptable risk is hard to define. That's a judgment call, and for you that's between what you want to do with your life and what your wife feels is taking unreasonable risk.

Next, your drafting description. This intrigues me because your description is a zen-like way of describing what I perceive. I can see details here and there but generally speaking I try to go with the flow rather than focus on this or that little thing. I don't know if it's that you can't perceive what's going on, meaning you can't process what's happening on the road 50 feet in front of you. If that's the case then you can't really drive a car either. So, can you drive a car safely? Can you see a red light or stop sign and are you aware enough to slow and stop for both?

If the answer is no then a group ride is really not good unless the others are hyper aware of your unique needs and can accommodate you. An empathetic rider or two would make a huge difference - they'd be steady, hold a good line, call out obstacles and intersections long before you got there, and they'd be a bit more aware of the traffic around them. This describes my ideal group ride buddies and I've been lucky to be on many rides with riders like that.

I could also see tandem riding as a viable alternative - they have blind stokers so one that doesn't process a lot of data quickly should be okay also. A tandem is a different creature but one full of interesting challenges. A good captain will be a pleasure to ride with because the stoker is really in command of the bike as far as the big picture goes - speed, pothole/bump things, when to coast, shifting, etc. The captain only manipulates the controls and deals with the immediate picture, like if a car appears on a side road so the captain prepares to brake.

If the answer is yes, I do drive, then a pace line is not much different from driving a car in moving traffic. With cars, at slower speeds, you only have maybe 5-10 cars to think about, meaning the ones in front of you. If you keep pace with the car 5 cars ahead of your car then you should be pretty safe. It's when you're 12 inches from the next bumper and you can't see anything except the license plate that you will get yourself into trouble. The latter is what you're doing when you're focused on the bike tire 4 inches in front of you. Instead you should be focusing 5 bikes in front of you.

I use a term "offset draft". When I started drafting I couldn't draft directly behind someone. I felt extremely uncomfortable - it's a normal instinctive thing. Therefore I drafted about 6" to one side or the other. Which side takes some judgment so I can't make a broad recommendation either way. I usually draft to the inside though because I'm less in traffic, most riders draft to the left (in my experience in the US) so the right gutter is usually clear. A lot of times I'll be riding in the tire tracks of the lead rider even though I'm 10 riders back.

As you get more comfortable looking ahead instead of focusing on the tire directly in front of you you'll find that you have more time to react. I personally can't react to something if I'm looking just 4 inches in front of my front wheel - I always look well beyond, glancing down every now and then to verify my spot relative to the others. I rarely look down though, so much so that when I think about questions like these in a middle of a race I have to force myself to look down to see how much of a gap I leave between me and the next rider.

Finally, although this is a bit risky, doing bumping drills should benefit you. You can do side-to-side bumping drills much easier. A little bit of practice goes a long way and you can practice at just above walking pace. Doing drills with an experienced (with bumping) rider will really help since the experienced rider can push you beyond your comfort zone while staying well within the realm of "safe bumping".

The other drill is touching your front wheel to another rider's rear wheel. It involves guaranteed falling so I did these drills on grass. We went about as slow as possible, wore thick clothing, gloves, helmet, etc. Basically there's two things you can do to stay upright when your front tire touches another thing (back tire, pedal, motorcycle tail light, car bumper, etc). One is you move the bike away, the other is you force your way through.

To move the bike away you have to understand that your bike is about 1/10th of the mass of your body. Therefore if you do some massive movement with your body then your bike will move in the opposite direction, sometimes quite a bit. If your front tire touches another rider's rear tire slightly you can immediately stand up on the pedals (or just push the bike back if you're already standing up). Your body standing up usually throws the bike back six to maybe 12 inches relative to the others around you. If you skim the tire in front of you and stand up then you'll be behind that tire again. If you're already standing just shoving the bike back will net you 3-4-5 inches of room. Your body moves forward say 1-2 inches but that allows you to bring your bike back much more (due to the mass difference).

(In races a sprinter will do the opposite to push the bike forward - they slide their butt off the back of the saddle to "throw" the bike forward. A good bike throw will net about a foot, enough to win a tight sprint. I have a picture of a sprint from a race I promote that illustrates the whole bike throw thing well. Note how the bike under the rider in green is actually ahead of the bike under the rider in blue. Yet the rider in blue, his body is in front of the rider in green. If the rider in blue had pushed his bike forward his bike would have moved forward say 6-8 inches and his body would have moved back an inch or so.

I'm not saying you need to throw your bike for sprints, I'm saying that if you stand and lean forward you can move your bike backward relative to those around you. If you move your body forward just an inch or two you're going to buy yourself a few inches of room in front of your front tire. It could save you from a tumble. I know it's saved me a number of times.)

The second thing to do is to barge through the wheel. Most riders who get their rear wheel hit won't fall. Most riders that touch their front wheel to something will fall. If you barge through the rear wheel then chances are that neither of you will fall. For this you need to be in a specific situation, one where the rider in front has suddenly veered or slowed really hard. You MUST be on the drops or the tops, with the reaction time to really firm up your grip on the bars. Push the bike forward a touch, sort of like the sprint throw, and just go straight. If your bars don't deviate too much, meaning they don't steer much, then you have a very, very good chance of staying upright. I've done this a number of times and made it through them (and, to be fair, I've falling a few times too, but only a few times compared to maybe a dozen or two dozen hard front "rubs").

Both those techniques require some practice so you get used to the motion, the moves, and you understand what to expect in terms of how tight to hold the bars etc.

Finally, as a general note, if you're not sure about the company around you in a group ride, hold the drops. You should have the most control over your bike from the drops. It's virtually impossible to lose your grip on the bars (unlike the hoods), you should be able to brake, steer very hard, etc. If you don't feel this way in the drops then that's a whole different thing.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

You got an abstract or executive summary to go with the dissertation?

I love riding solo, so I'm biased.

However, in your situation I would avoid doing group rides unless I had a small group that I absolutely, 100% trusted. The risks aren't worth it, IMO. There are plenty of ways to enjoy the sport when riding solo, and it may not be risk-free, but the risk is much lower.

It seems like every time I do an event (which may attract Freds, but still) there is at least one crash. I've had a few close calls thanks to others' mistakes.

ill let others chime in on this one but based on my own interest of riding in a paceline (none), id say if you are nervous about the activity from the get go, and your condition is already comprimised from a previous injury, then i wouldn't even bother. ride by yourself or with a few friends but i wouldnt put my trust in a group of people ahead of me.

NASCAR racers draft each other, and you gain exactly the same benefits if you "draft" somebody on the freeway, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea, either. Anyway, use your own judgement, and don't feel bad if you keep your distance.

I enjoy riding with other people, but usually, if it's such a paceline that you NEED to stay right on the wheel ahead, it also means it becomes more of a workout, and not a social event, so even though you're with a dozen people, you can't actually talk to anyone, and might as well go ride by yourself.

Great thread guys and I appreciate it!

Carpiediem: yes, I do drive. However to give a little perspective, I couldn't drive safely for several months after the accident, and not at night for a couple months after that. You'd be AMAZED how much, I guess, vector processing is required to drive! I simply couldn't do it; it was overwhelming and very stressful. Nowadays, and I think this is directly topical, I am an even more cautious driver and leave plenty of room between me and everyone else. As opposed to a paceline.

I'm only an expert on MY brain injury, but at least when talking about the elements of it that pertain to paceline riding, there were several main issues that have mostly resolved, 2 years later, at least in day to day life. When I push boundaries is when I will still run up against them. The processing thing is at the core of it; while there is a zen-like aspect to having things "blur" it's not a good blurring if that makes sense.

Directly tied to processing ability is situational awareness. The brain-injured person tends to narrow in on things; one example would be walking out of a grocery store into a parking lot. The healthy brain, without even realizing it, is processing a myriad of incoming data from all directions, parsing it into what's a threat, what's not... you are looking one direction but your awareness forms a "bubble" in all directions; it's just normal everyday brain function. The injured brain, or at least mine, would lock in on one thing- the dog barking from a locked car, say, or the little boy in the bright red coat with his mom. Then I'd jump out of my skin when I realized I'd walked in front of a car, or because I'd turn to go to my car and realize there was someone right behind me.... This was a constant thing, 24/7, and the "jumping out of my skin" part was immensely fatiguing and distressing. Miserable.

Anyway, lol, fast-forward 18 months from that era and here I am; 90-something percent back, but I still bump up against limitations sometimes but they are few and far between... I'm expecting some issues when I (FINALLY!!) get back on my skis this year; the speed and the way conditions make it hard to see sometimes will be difficult, I think. With cycling, it's been a monstrously huge net-positive for me; really put me back in my body and resolved of some fundamental level for me whether I belonged there, but with paceline riding I sure have found one of those darn limitations and coupled with the increased crash risk, I think I'll just let caution rule the day in this instance and continue to avoid it. My riding buddy is experienced with it and perhaps we can start practicing in more controlled circumstances.

Obviously, since I'm cycling and about to resume skiing, I'm willing to engage in activities that carry risk; I mean this is my life and I'm gonna live it, but there's a real "choose your battles" aspect to it now. I won't be skiing in whiteout conditions... I think I'll pass on pace lining.... etc.

I responded earlier and want to add this....

Six and a half years ago, wife and I were stopped at red light. SUV driver doing 60mph did not use brakes as he approached us. SUV mounted our car and was in trunk as we came to a stop, together, 200 feet away from my stop. My wife hit nothing but suffered a subdural hematoma among other things. She deals with the after effects to this day and will continue until death. She too can suffer dire consequences if she bumps her head, but life goes on and she lives it according to her rules.

Your road to enjoyment is determined by you and will include whatever potholes you create or you come across. Those holes you create can be big or small. I would want as small as possible holes in front of me to prolong my enjoyment of life as long as possible.

Hope I made some sense.

I think this is a wise choice. It may take you some time to regain the confidence in riding in close proximity to other riders. I had a friend in a similar situation last year. He suffered a stroke and had to retrain the brain. His speech and motor skills slowly came back through therapy and eventually he got back on the bike. He requested that I go along with him to let him know how he was doing with holding a straight line, taking corners, drafting, etc. He did have some issues with depth perception and situational awareness, that over time seemed to get much better. The first few rides were kind of rough.

Riding with a friend(s) that knows your limitations is a smart move. Otherwise, nothing wrong with riding solo either.

After reading this, I would say, for you, large groups are out of the question for a while. Stick to small groups with a few good friends.

I'm no expert on brain things but I know a few riders that have had some kind of brain injury. It was very distressing, even from a distance, to see them as they worked on recovering from their injuries. What you describe with the supermarket parking lot illustrates the effects you're feeling very vividly to me. Based on that I would also recommend staying away from group rides, at least for now. That "situational awareness" is critical for safety in a group.

I still think that a tandem would be an interesting experiment, with you as the stoker. With an experienced tandem captain you'd be able to engage in some social riding type stuff. After having ridden our tandem in tandem+ groups (every bike on the ride are tandems or triplet bikes), a single bike group (our tandem but every other bike was a single), and just solo (ourselves on the tandem), I think tandems work best when mixing with other tandems - tandems go slower on hills, pretty quick on flats, and can go very fast on descents, and there aren't really many single riders that fit the same type of power profile. However a mass group ride for all riders, like a metric century with food stops etc, allows tandems to participate in group settings without as much pressure on not getting dropped etc.

It's critical that the captain be experienced. That's the only caveat with a tandem.

With skiing it'll be similar to cycling with a few less distractions (like no cars to deal with). I hope that you can enjoy the skiing and translate some of that activity to the bike.

You're obviously thinking about this seriously. When you feel ready to try a group ride again I imagine you'll base that on good judgment. Good luck with everything and please ask questions as you think of them.

OldTryGuy- sounds like you guys got lucky, in a sense! As did I. Turns out '95 Land Cruiser trumps late 80's van in a head-on...

My wife was very patient with me; in addition to the processing issues above, I had some truly wack emotional chaos and volitility happening. It was a frightening time- I didn't know if I'd ever get "me" back, find my emotional center again, etc.

Luckily I can't remember much of the first few months except as sort of a very dark strange dream! Anyway I can tell by your tone that you have been there for your wife, and dealing with a brain-injured person is no small thing. Good on ye sir.

A weird side-observation.... when I look at posts I made right after the wreck on another forum, they are cogent and lucid. This at a time I was stammering and calling things by the wrong word. It comes back to processing- speaking, human interaction and so on, has a real-time component. Very processor-intensive. Writing does not, and you can re-read and edit and so on.

I also discovered at that time how the vast bulk of what people say is not what they actually mean! The little lies, subterfuges, double-speaks, reverse-psychology innuendos, and manipulations are constant and EXHAUSTING to the injured mind. I had to set some clear boundaries with my family WRT just tell me what you are trying to say CLEARLY AND DIRECTLY.

If that doesn't sum up the situation I don't know what will.

Yep, sounds like a good decision to stick with what you are comfortable with and be safe.

I've had a guy on a few rides who has some sort of neck issue that he is looking straight ahead and then it looks like he falls asleep then jerks his head back up again.. repeats about once a minute.. scares the crap out of me and i try to stay away from him.

Your best bet is probably riding in a small group with 1-3 friends who are aware of your situation. Having extra eyes around may provide better situational awareness to keep you out of trouble.

For most of us cycling is recreation and exercise. Unless you're racing, you don't need a group to draft from. The purpose of a group is to provide social/moral support. If you ride with friend's you can converse and draft when conditions are good, then drop back when you need more reaction time.

Be aware of both your limits, and potential danger areas. Give yourself distance before turns, and only tuck in close when you can see a clear road ahead.

And make sure the friends ride Cervelos, because:
1) they are hideous and easier to see.
2) if you do run into them, you won't damage anything nice.

+1, this is not the place to HTFU and go for it as doing so puts not only you, but everybody in the group at risk. It's good that you recognize your current limitations and ride either solo or with a few friends that know what you are dealing with.

You win the thread!

If you race, then you must become skilled at riding in a paceline.
If you don't race, then you are stupid to ride in a paceline.

In my experience, pacelines are the No. 1 cause of preventable bike accidents. Too often you are entrusting your life, or at least your clavicle, to a relative stranger going 25 mph less than a foot from your tire. You wouldn't do that in a car -- why do it on a fragile two-wheeler with no safety equipment? The point of a paceline is to go faster with less effort. But why are you riding a bike? Isn't it for fitness? Do your own work and reap the physical and mental benefits of independent achievement. Being a mooch sucks.

Conversely, I should avoid Treks. A Trek CF asplosion is an ever-present possibility; it's one thing for those crazy bastids to risk it, but if I'm in a group with them, they are putting my very life in danger!

Unless you aren't an antisocial loner?

It is fun to ride in a group
It is fun to ride faster than you can alone

My goal of riding a bike is not to not get into an accident. Yes, it is probably the leading cause of bike accidents. At some point, you shouldn't care. It's a sport. It's about extending your body. My goal in riding a bike is to go faster. Riding with a group, learning to go fast with a group, is part of bike riding for me. For your point about fitness, some of the hardest rides I've done have involved pacelines. The objective of staying with the paceline and contributing to pace pushes you more than simply plodding along alone. Yes, I race. Yes, I was riding in pace lines long before I was racing.

You don't like riding in groups. Good on you. You're the guy who walks up to a bar, orders a glass of water and preaches to everyone within earshot about how awful drinking is for you. Put kindly, a downer. The goal of my life is not to not die. I like building things, including my body and my motor skills, and if that entails a little more risk than planting my ass on the couch, so be it.

PS: you talk about driving... my driving skills have improved dramatically since I started racing six years ago. Just say'n.