Based on that comment, I'm having a hard time believing you have any of the experience you claim.

I suspect inexperience is likely a much greater cause.

Yes, but most of my crashes, experienced or not, have come from movements of other riders in a group (100% during racing, BTW, never on a friendly group ride), not from road terrain. It has been a long time since I've crashed all by my lonesome (knock on wood...). As far as "leading" from a statistical point of view taking into account all cyclists, it's probably not "leading" as such. Wet pavement probably holds that honor, with cars, directly or indirectly holding second place.

There is a point to be made about "bad" crashes where bodies get broken and heads get knocked. I don't claim superhuman handling skills, but up until I started racing, I never hit my head on the ground, despite a couple crashes/falls. Riding in groups raises the chances of getting your front wheel swept with the subsequent very quick fall which happens too quickly to get your hands out or your chin tucked.
_____________

My point is if you are worried about being injured doing something relatively inconsequential, cycling is probably not for you. Gym spin bikes are definitely safer, if not for your sanity, then for your body. My thinking is, when you make the decision to avoid unnecessary risk at all cost, you lose the ability to exist outside of society's constructs. If you don't train yourself in a relatively controlled environment such as a regulated surface street, then how are you going to fair when you are cut off from society for a few days, when, say, you get lost on a hike or, like, a hurricane comes and destroys most of your city? If you never experience pain and injury, how are you going to survive the pain of a sprained ankle when you are forced to walk on one to hike to safety? You just going to sit down and wait for someone braver than you to come rescue your ass? Every sort of experience is valuable, even experience with pain and suffering. The bike allows me to train this experience (amongst other things, of course) in a controlled setting.

You know those movies where the hero is thrown across the room by some big bad? Yea, I've crashed at 30mph before. I know you don't simply get up and start fighting again...

Even with the trappings of society surrounding most of us every day, it still pays to let the body experience pain and suffering and risk. Someday those societal trappings might just be stripped away for a time and you'll be forced to fend for your naked self. Better to get that training now, when all that society is still surrounding you.

Well said, but as a contrary data point, none of my crashes have been on group rides or in races. Not that I race very much, but I do spend a lot of time in a pack.

Racing is definitely a different beast, especially crit type racing (as opposed to road). People are riding much closer together, much faster, and people take risks to win. It's funny, the statistical nature of crashing. I've crashed a fair amount in races (people who know me personally are chuckling right now), but I can count the number of times I've crashed non-racing (solo or group) in my entire cycling lifetime (going on 20 years) on one hand.

Wouldn't do it, risk ending up a vegetable TC? For what?
*Asocial, Copenhagen where are you?!! I'm sure there are plenty of loners who drink alcohol Mr.

Good post, Brian.

How old are you? Reason I ask, is that the windmills we choose to tilt at are fairly tied to age and stage of life. I'm fully with you in theory about extending your physical abilities into uncomfortable and even dangerous places- hell, I'm a wilderness elk hunter!- but at age 48 I'm forced by the realities of physiology to choose my battles a bit more.

My head thing is a separate issue; that just is what it is. I can report that sort of thing really gets you where you live. It's one thing to have an injured ankle; it's another to have an injured "you". Anyway within the context of pushing boundaries I have to manage the risks as well, and acknowledge reality...

heh heh.... here's an example of that (not). I did a solo backpack wilderness mule deer hunt fall of 2012... so about 11 months after I got hurt. The people at the cognitive rehab place I'd been going to were very much against it... my wife was leery... but you gotta live, right? The pack-in started at 9400 feet and there was no trail. I was heading to a GPS marker given to me by someone else who'd hunted there and I chose a bad way to get there. Hey, looked good on the sat-maps! Anyway, at one point I had to rope my pack and rifle down a cliff, then climb down after them. And so it went. VERY rugged area- here's a pic:



At any rate.... I love to "get uncomfortable" but as you and others have said, pace lines probably aren't the place to do it.

As a side note it was on that trip that I discovered how HEALING highly aerobic activity is to a brain-injured person. It was transformative. A clear turning point in the whole ordeal.

You want to compare livers? I've worked in journalism for a long time.

Despite the way you describe me -- have we ever met? -- I hardly ever ride alone. I'm usually out with two or three friends. We've all either been taken down, or seen others go down, in serious paceline accidents. To us, pacelines just ain't worth it. You can have a lot of fun riding with friends without mooching off their wheels.

The OP has already had a traumatic brain injury, and apparently has no interest in racing. Why do you think he should risk a paceline?

My bet is that you and I would have a lot of fun riding together, but, truthfully, I wouldn't want you sucking off my wheel. It's better to put less faith in the riding skills of strangers.

I think there's been at least one crash in just about every race I've done. The worst of them have all been in road races. I haven't done a crit since someone rubbed my rear wheel and piled up the pack behind me.

Hey, you were the one coming in here with the attitude. Personally, I couldn't care less about who is sucking my wheel and I am confident in my ability to avoid trouble in front of me.

I'm "only" 34 years old. I get your point about age limitations though. The "older" amongst us have generally earned the right to a bit of comfort .

At twice Brian's age, I still feel exactly the way he does. That's the way you do it. That's how you get here.

As I've said before, I've never had a paceline crash. In fact, other than low speed stupid, I've only crashed twice, both solo: once when I stupidly tried to cross from a shoulder onto raised asphalt, once when a car turned left in front of me. Both crashes were my fault. In the first case I was inattentive. In the second, I was wearing blue and black and had no daytime blinkies running. He didn't see me. Now I only wear high viz and have a 250 lumen blinkie on the front. I'm seen. I've probably been on 1000 group rides and probably been in a paceline on every one of them. All the same, it doesn't seem like a good idea for LT. Safer to go climbing.

Skiing . . . How about Nordic? Better workout, cheaper, less dangerous. All the same, I still ski downhill. 2 more years and it's almost free. There are skiers at my local area with 80+ jacket patches. I talked to one guy who was 91. He couldn't walk worth didly, but he skied beautifully.

Brutal! My "stay in and drink warm milk" karma returneth to haunteth me!

Well now I'm pissed I didn't post my guess- I had you at mid-30's vigorous angst <grin>. Good for you man. Get some!!! That's a great age.

I'm sort of two steps ahead of you chronologically but it seems like you are way ahead of where I was at 34.... plus you are already low-impact (?).... I was still playing hoops competitively at 34- maybe a mistake.

Age is a question of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. I've ridden with several well into their 60's that can put a hurtin on those half their age. And yes, they know very well how to ride in a paceline and respond to the sudden surges and bunching up in a pack.

+1

Long Tom, I've come to about the same attitude and conclusion about pace lines as you have, regardless of limitations. The only point I can see in riding pacelines is to learn to ride in pacelines. And I assume, for the sheer fun of it. I personally don't see it worth the risk regardless, unless you're going to race or are into fast centuries or like "the fast group". I'd also accept that at some point, if you do enough of them there is a good chance of an accident even with skilled riders.

Even very small risks compound to a large risk if you take enough of them. Sensible caution is a good thing.

Just as a for what it's worth, I have never raced, will never race, find "5 hr century" goals pointless, and have had an absolute ball riding in fast pace lines. If you have four or five riders working together, you get a phenomenal workout that would be hard to get solo, you eat up ground in a hurry, and get to share a unique form of exhilaration. The arguement that there is no reason to ride in one if your only purpose is fitness is wrong, but it gets perpetuated by people who don't want to ride in them.

Long Tom, don't ride in pace lines. But realize that hiking with no head protection is far more dangerous than cycling. I have hiked for years, and have had far more injuries and near death experiences bush whacking than cycling. I was at one point sliding down a cliff, spread eagle, and only stopped because I could snag a root with a lunge of my foot. That snag inverted me, and as I dangled upside down, I realized if it hadn't stopped me, it would have sent me head first into the sudden rocky stop at the bottom.

That's what I meant by "the sheer fun of it". I would never say that people don't enjoy riding in fast pace lines. I'd probably enjoy it myself, and the few times I have joined in, it's been exhilarating. But if it's not specifically your thing, then there's no particular urgency to train yourself for a paceline, or to even learn how. It's not one of those must-have cyclist skills unless you're racing or want to ride with people who ride in pacelines. It doesn't generalize to much of anything else in cycling.

one could say that about riding your bike in general. mountain biking takes different skills and some people like it and some don't. riding a fixie takes different skills that some like and some don't. some people like centuries or randoneer events or touring. personally i like 70mi or less with a fast group and a lot of hills.

Personally, there are few experiences as enjoyable as riding in a group of strong, smooth, experienced riders. Especially when compared to the terror of riding with a group of squirrely freds.

The problem is that one squirrely fred can ruin a strong, smooth paceline.

plenty of ways to drop said squirrly fred.

Or at least get him to the back. A couple words here and there help too.

+1

Given the rate of recovery at my age, I'm less inclined to partake in risky behavior with those I am not familiar.

On group rides with less experienced riders, if the pace has become unwieldy, it is good practice to take the wheel and slow the front by being the front. I sure hate seeing someone on the edge of control while amongst my friends at speed.

There really is no point to warp speed, lest it be a training ride where all are more experienced and aware to start.

And as the young Brian R. said, a couple of words here and there ... Man, 34, that's seems like a minute ago and yet so far into the past.