Ramsay's Weird TT Bike
12-28-13, 09:10 AM
#51
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You can find the article yourself - google Nature and running or along those lines. You're the one interested, not me. It's a big time paper.
The theory is that humans because we have minds that can allow us to solve problems and perservere, can compesnate for our lack of super speed and lethal teeth, by using cunning, planning, and guile to track prey until they're exhausted or unaware that we're still hunting them. It's clearly worked evolutionarily.
Our intelligence would be meaningless if we didn't have enough basic locomotion and endurance to utilize it to hunt prey - this has been true for like 99% of human time; only in the last 1% of human time (less actually) have we developed enough machinery and infrastructure to not depend at all on physical prowess.
I think (but can't definitely recall) that the human bipedal locomotion was also unique amonst primates and even most mammals, and was a distinctive quality related to this as well.
Science.
The theory is that humans because we have minds that can allow us to solve problems and perservere, can compesnate for our lack of super speed and lethal teeth, by using cunning, planning, and guile to track prey until they're exhausted or unaware that we're still hunting them. It's clearly worked evolutionarily.
Our intelligence would be meaningless if we didn't have enough basic locomotion and endurance to utilize it to hunt prey - this has been true for like 99% of human time; only in the last 1% of human time (less actually) have we developed enough machinery and infrastructure to not depend at all on physical prowess.
I think (but can't definitely recall) that the human bipedal locomotion was also unique amonst primates and even most mammals, and was a distinctive quality related to this as well.
Science.
12-28-13, 09:22 AM
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Yup. Other bipeds lack the gluteus maximus for running propulsion. It's critical.
12-28-13, 09:24 AM
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You would be wrong. Humans didn't just pop in to existence with big brains intact. Look up "persistence hunting," which is still practiced today. Humans are FAR more energy efficient than quadrupeds.
12-28-13, 09:27 AM
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Assuming the early **** Sapiens were capable of running for 16 hours at 10 minute miles (6 mph, thus 100 miles), they should burn about 11,200 calories. The same amount corresponds to 185 lbs of horse meat. Note that this does not include carrying it back.
Opposable thumbs rule for sure. I am no biology expert but bipedalism seems to be a very inefficient way for running. Distributing the body weight on four limbs should cause less fatigue.
12-28-13, 09:31 AM
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12-28-13, 10:02 AM
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Speaking of the horse example:
Assuming the early **** Sapiens were capable of running for 16 hours at 10 minute miles (6 mph, thus 100 miles), they should burn about 11,200 calories. The same amount corresponds to 185 lbs of horse meat. Note that this does not include carrying it back.
Opposable thumbs rule for sure. I am no biology expert but bipedalism seems to be a very inefficient way for running. Distributing the body weight on four limbs should cause less fatigue.
Assuming the early **** Sapiens were capable of running for 16 hours at 10 minute miles (6 mph, thus 100 miles), they should burn about 11,200 calories. The same amount corresponds to 185 lbs of horse meat. Note that this does not include carrying it back.
Opposable thumbs rule for sure. I am no biology expert but bipedalism seems to be a very inefficient way for running. Distributing the body weight on four limbs should cause less fatigue.
12-28-13, 10:06 AM
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I actually did find and had a quick glance at the article @hhnngg1 was mentioning before.
here's a quick link if anyone wants to check: https://www.fas.harvard.edu/~skeleton/pdfs/2004e.pdf
I think this is the part you remember about the 100 miles and the horse (which is in km btw)
Here's the section about @WhyFi and his theory of bipedalism efficiency. (Page 346)
I am not telling anyone is wrong or right. Since we cannot reanimate the exact conditions of our early ancestors, any study will be incomplete.
Fun reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon
here's a quick link if anyone wants to check: https://www.fas.harvard.edu/~skeleton/pdfs/2004e.pdf
I think this is the part you remember about the 100 miles and the horse (which is in km btw)
Fit human amateurs canregularly run 10km, and longer distances such as marathons(42.2 km) are achieved by tens of thousands of people each year.Such distances are unknown if not impossible for any other primate,but are comparable to those observed in specialized mammaliancursors in open habitats. African hunting dogs travel an average of10 km per day, and wolves and hyenas travel on average 14 and19 km day21, respectively14. This is not to say that humans can
outdistance specialized quadrupeds. Some horse and dog breeds, forexample, can be made to run more than 100 km day2 1 whilecarrying or pulling a human. Such extreme and human-inducedfeats, however, should not detract from the fact that humans canand do run long distances well, despite a primate ancestry.
outdistance specialized quadrupeds. Some horse and dog breeds, forexample, can be made to run more than 100 km day2 1 whilecarrying or pulling a human. Such extreme and human-inducedfeats, however, should not detract from the fact that humans canand do run long distances well, despite a primate ancestry.
The one category in which humans perform poorly compared tomany quadrupeds is the energetic cost of running. The mass-adjusted COT (Cost of travel) of human running is about 50% higher than a typicalmammal, including other primates12. Compared to the only valuemeasured for a chimpanzee (a 17.5-kg juvenile), human running is25% less costly in absolute terms, but about 10% more costly whenadjusted for body mass29. Interestingly, other endurance cursorssuch as wolves and African hunting dogs also have high mass-adjusted COT relative to the average mammal12.
Fun reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon
12-28-13, 10:44 AM
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You should probably keep reading instead of assuming that the 10-year-old paper that you dredged up is salient and what's being referenced.
12-28-13, 10:56 AM
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I actually did find and had a quick glance at the article @hhnngg1 was mentioning before.
here's a quick link if anyone wants to check: https://www.fas.harvard.edu/~skeleton/pdfs/2004e.pdf
I think this is the part you remember about the 100 miles and the horse (which is in km btw)
Here's the section about @WhyFi and his theory of bipedalism efficiency. (Page 346)
I am not telling anyone is wrong or right. Since we cannot reanimate the exact conditions of our early ancestors, any study will be incomplete.
Fun reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon
here's a quick link if anyone wants to check: https://www.fas.harvard.edu/~skeleton/pdfs/2004e.pdf
I think this is the part you remember about the 100 miles and the horse (which is in km btw)
Here's the section about @WhyFi and his theory of bipedalism efficiency. (Page 346)
I am not telling anyone is wrong or right. Since we cannot reanimate the exact conditions of our early ancestors, any study will be incomplete.
Fun reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon
As well, nobody said humans were the BEST at distance. The most obvious example of a quadruped that humans have no chance against at any distance is a sled dog. They will outrun humans, even the most elite ones, by huge margins at any distance. However, humans remain outstanding super endurance creatures. You were the one who disagreed with this original premise, which is why it has been mentioned.
12-28-13, 11:08 AM
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You should read 'Born to Run' by Christopher McDougall. He writes about the evolutionary abilities of humans to run long distances and even outrun deer to the point where the deer collapses from sheer exhaustion providing several dinners for the hunter and his family. There is some anectodal evidence in this book and also some references to research journals.
From a sheer muscular strength perspective, most mammals probably have a higher strength to weight ratio, but human cardiovascular endurance is far higher. The ability to sweat effectively and separate the organs of locomotion from the organs that facilitate breathing help with this endurance.
From a sheer muscular strength perspective, most mammals probably have a higher strength to weight ratio, but human cardiovascular endurance is far higher. The ability to sweat effectively and separate the organs of locomotion from the organs that facilitate breathing help with this endurance.
I would like to check that article, if you could provide a link that'll be great.
For what I've known, human beings suck pretty much at every athletic aspect. That is why we have a developed front brain and learned how to search for shelter, make tools and weapons to turn our physical disadvantage to our favour. Dolphins for example are considered to be almost as smart as humans but their athletic ability provides them enough agility to hunt for themselves and out-swim any threat. Our intelligence and dominance is also well respected in nature as no wild animal (except polar bears) hunts humans.
I'm not saying what you are saying is wrong but I see no evolutionary advantage in being able to outrun a horse in a 100 miles race.
For what I've known, human beings suck pretty much at every athletic aspect. That is why we have a developed front brain and learned how to search for shelter, make tools and weapons to turn our physical disadvantage to our favour. Dolphins for example are considered to be almost as smart as humans but their athletic ability provides them enough agility to hunt for themselves and out-swim any threat. Our intelligence and dominance is also well respected in nature as no wild animal (except polar bears) hunts humans.
I'm not saying what you are saying is wrong but I see no evolutionary advantage in being able to outrun a horse in a 100 miles race.
12-28-13, 12:39 PM
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I'm betting he had a very good professional fit by somebody with a solid understanding of his body's needs and was fitted to a bike that would work well for him. If I wanted to do TT I'd probably end up on such a bike. Obviously if he were more flexible he would have chosen a more aero bike. There are a LOT of people on "pro" bikes that would be much more comfortable in a less aero position. I recently cured a friend's frustration and sore back with a shorter stem and higher handlebars. The bike fit him fine 30 years ago. I say "well done, gordon".
12-28-13, 01:20 PM
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As well, nobody said humans were the BEST at distance. The most obvious example of a quadruped that humans have no chance against at any distance is a sled dog. They will outrun humans, even the most elite ones, by huge margins at any distance. However, humans remain outstanding super endurance creatures. You were the one who disagreed with this original premise, which is why it has been mentioned.
12-28-13, 04:45 PM
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No, if you finish any triathlon with the distance of the Kona race, you can call yourself an Ironman.
Technically, "Ironman" is a trademarked name by World Triathlon Corporation , which is different than the International Triathlon Union (ITU). WTC is a commercial group primarily out to make money, whereas ITU is more of a competitive triathlon organization focused on world-class Olympic-distance racing. (Much, much shorter than an Ironman, but typically on elite athletes or budding elites participate in their big races.)
Kona, however, is the world championship for the long Ironman race, and you can either qualify for it by winning a slot in another IM race prior to it, or trying to get a lottery spot (of which there are very few.) Ramsey is a celeb, and there are a few special reserved spots for celebs who can bring particular media attention to the race, so he doesn't have to qualify.
Qualifying for Kona today typically means you're amongst the top 5 amateur triathletes who race iron-distance in your state, maybe top 20 in a large state like CA. It's hard - these guys typically beat a handful of professional triathletes in races (pro triathletes have to meet certain time standards, so it's not as easy as calling yourself pro.)
Technically, "Ironman" is a trademarked name by World Triathlon Corporation , which is different than the International Triathlon Union (ITU). WTC is a commercial group primarily out to make money, whereas ITU is more of a competitive triathlon organization focused on world-class Olympic-distance racing. (Much, much shorter than an Ironman, but typically on elite athletes or budding elites participate in their big races.)
Kona, however, is the world championship for the long Ironman race, and you can either qualify for it by winning a slot in another IM race prior to it, or trying to get a lottery spot (of which there are very few.) Ramsey is a celeb, and there are a few special reserved spots for celebs who can bring particular media attention to the race, so he doesn't have to qualify.
Qualifying for Kona today typically means you're amongst the top 5 amateur triathletes who race iron-distance in your state, maybe top 20 in a large state like CA. It's hard - these guys typically beat a handful of professional triathletes in races (pro triathletes have to meet certain time standards, so it's not as easy as calling yourself pro.)
I think it's not as simple as finishing the distance. Ironman is simply a brand, owned by the WTC, which is a private, for-profit corporation.
I compete in Ironman 70.3 and qualified for the 70.3 World Championship. Still does not make me an Ironman.
I have completed Challenge (a competing, German based triathlon "brand"). Challenge calls their races as follows: Challenge Taiwan (226km or 140.6miles) and Challenge Taiwan Half. Alternately, you see them sometimes use Challenge Taiwan 226 (Of course swap Taiwan for whichever venue you are competing at!)
But still, when I finish the 140.6 distance, I don't consider it an Ironman unless it's an Ironman event. Just me. The distance is the same, and aside from the significant differences in difficulty due to course layout and conditions, the challenge is the same. In many ways, I prefer the "vibe" of Challenge events to Ironman...but in Asia...the competitive guys in either event are pretty much the same...hard-core ex-pat guys, amazing Japanese athletes who have been into Tri for a long time, and a few super strong local guys. In Taiwan, long distance triathlon has only been around about 5 years...so other than the 30 and under age groups, fast triathletes are few and far between. When you look at the guys 25 and under though, you can see how the sport grows by having amazing events...some of those guys can really go hard, whereas I see many 35+ Taiwanese "triathletes" struggle to run, ride a folding bike, and breaststroke for the swim! Still have my respect for finishing, but not quite what I imagined when I started racing here.
12-28-13, 05:53 PM
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You can believe whatever you want, but I can guarantee that if you go to any triathlon club, and some folks have finished the equivalent distance of a 140.3 race, even if it was not WTC-branded, you'd be considered a spoilsport and a total doof if you went in there and said "well, you're not REALLY an Ironman because it wasn't a WTC event."
The vast majority of triathletes will accept that if you finish a 140.3 distance race, even non-WTC, by the cutoff, you can call yourself an ironman.
(By your criteria, I haven't finished a half-ironman as I've never done a WTC event, even though I've done 4 of 'em.)
The vast majority of triathletes will accept that if you finish a 140.3 distance race, even non-WTC, by the cutoff, you can call yourself an ironman.
(By your criteria, I haven't finished a half-ironman as I've never done a WTC event, even though I've done 4 of 'em.)
12-28-13, 07:26 PM
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I think it's not as simple as finishing the distance. Ironman is simply a brand, owned by the WTC, which is a private, for-profit corporation.
I compete in Ironman 70.3 and qualified for the 70.3 World Championship. Still does not make me an Ironman.
I have completed Challenge (a competing, German based triathlon "brand"). Challenge calls their races as follows: Challenge Taiwan (226km or 140.6miles) and Challenge Taiwan Half. Alternately, you see them sometimes use Challenge Taiwan 226 (Of course swap Taiwan for whichever venue you are competing at!)
But still, when I finish the 140.6 distance, I don't consider it an Ironman unless it's an Ironman event. Just me. The distance is the same, and aside from the significant differences in difficulty due to course layout and conditions, the challenge is the same. In many ways, I prefer the "vibe" of Challenge events to Ironman...but in Asia...the competitive guys in either event are pretty much the same...hard-core ex-pat guys, amazing Japanese athletes who have been into Tri for a long time, and a few super strong local guys. In Taiwan, long distance triathlon has only been around about 5 years...so other than the 30 and under age groups, fast triathletes are few and far between. When you look at the guys 25 and under though, you can see how the sport grows by having amazing events...some of those guys can really go hard, whereas I see many 35+ Taiwanese "triathletes" struggle to run, ride a folding bike, and breaststroke for the swim! Still have my respect for finishing, but not quite what I imagined when I started racing here.
I compete in Ironman 70.3 and qualified for the 70.3 World Championship. Still does not make me an Ironman.
I have completed Challenge (a competing, German based triathlon "brand"). Challenge calls their races as follows: Challenge Taiwan (226km or 140.6miles) and Challenge Taiwan Half. Alternately, you see them sometimes use Challenge Taiwan 226 (Of course swap Taiwan for whichever venue you are competing at!)
But still, when I finish the 140.6 distance, I don't consider it an Ironman unless it's an Ironman event. Just me. The distance is the same, and aside from the significant differences in difficulty due to course layout and conditions, the challenge is the same. In many ways, I prefer the "vibe" of Challenge events to Ironman...but in Asia...the competitive guys in either event are pretty much the same...hard-core ex-pat guys, amazing Japanese athletes who have been into Tri for a long time, and a few super strong local guys. In Taiwan, long distance triathlon has only been around about 5 years...so other than the 30 and under age groups, fast triathletes are few and far between. When you look at the guys 25 and under though, you can see how the sport grows by having amazing events...some of those guys can really go hard, whereas I see many 35+ Taiwanese "triathletes" struggle to run, ride a folding bike, and breaststroke for the swim! Still have my respect for finishing, but not quite what I imagined when I started racing here.
You can believe whatever you want, but I can guarantee that if you go to any triathlon club, and some folks have finished the equivalent distance of a 140.3 race, even if it was not WTC-branded, you'd be considered a spoilsport and a total doof if you went in there and said "well, you're not REALLY an Ironman because it wasn't a WTC event."
The vast majority of triathletes will accept that if you finish a 140.3 distance race, even non-WTC, by the cutoff, you can call yourself an ironman.
(By your criteria, I haven't finished a half-ironman as I've never done a WTC event, even though I've done 4 of 'em.)
The vast majority of triathletes will accept that if you finish a 140.3 distance race, even non-WTC, by the cutoff, you can call yourself an ironman.
(By your criteria, I haven't finished a half-ironman as I've never done a WTC event, even though I've done 4 of 'em.)
12-28-13, 08:20 PM
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That's fine. Again, most triathletes would not agree with you, that just because you haven't done a WTC race, you're not an official Ironman or Half-Ironman, when you clearly have finished the distance. But everyone's welcome to believe whatever they want.
12-28-13, 09:16 PM
#67
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I've yet to hear a triathlete say, "I'm preparing for a 140 mile tri." "Ironman" may be a trademarked owned by WTC, but, it's also "the distance".
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12-28-13, 09:24 PM
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This is not a settled issue even on slowtwitch, but by all means, keep arguing.
12-28-13, 09:28 PM
#69
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**** sapiens nontrius here. In my eyes, if you go 140.3 or whatever insane distance you damage your heart with, you are an iron person in my book.
I question the ancestral ultra running stuff. I'm no paleontologist, but it seems that whenever they unearth Uncle Harvey 10,000 generations removed, his poor skeleton is beat up pretty bad. Seems like all this running around generated some pretty nasty arthritis.
Maybe they just chewed on a poppy plant and got on with it.
I question the ancestral ultra running stuff. I'm no paleontologist, but it seems that whenever they unearth Uncle Harvey 10,000 generations removed, his poor skeleton is beat up pretty bad. Seems like all this running around generated some pretty nasty arthritis.
Maybe they just chewed on a poppy plant and got on with it.
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12-28-13, 09:42 PM
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A pretty good recent large-scale study of runners (not ultra or competitive runners) showed that if anything, runners had long-term better cartilage health.
In the ultra crowd, lots of older folks as well; doesn't seem that their cartilage is wearing out prematurely. It's one of the most oommon but inaccurate myths about running injuries, that you have a finite number of miles in your cartilage, and thus destined for a wheelchair at age 65 just because you ran a lot when you were longer.
In the ultra crowd, lots of older folks as well; doesn't seem that their cartilage is wearing out prematurely. It's one of the most oommon but inaccurate myths about running injuries, that you have a finite number of miles in your cartilage, and thus destined for a wheelchair at age 65 just because you ran a lot when you were longer.
12-28-13, 09:51 PM
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The real question is whether or not it would be OK to draft him on that bike.
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12-28-13, 10:04 PM
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HOWEVER...covering the distance (140.6/226) and saying it is Ironman is really the same as saying a double patty burger from XYZ burger joint is the same as a Big Mac. Ironman is just that, a trademark. Or perhaps a better analogy is how people used to say "Can you xerox this for me?" using the brand, instead of the verb copy.
WTC is not the end all and be all of triathlon. I enjoy their events. I even ponied up the huge entry fee to compete in the Ironman 70.3 World Championship. And this year I will attempt to qualify for Kona. That said, when I compete in Challenge sanctioned events, or Lava, I do not in any way feel they are inferior to Ironman. In sooooo many ways I love Challenge more....so to me....it is insulting to say that means I'm an ironman!
But hnngg1....it is absolutely a fact....if you have not done a WTC event, you are NOT an Ironman. You didn't buy the Big Mac, thus you don't get to eat it!
But you might be better than an Ironman!
12-28-13, 10:22 PM
#73
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A pretty good recent large-scale study of runners (not ultra or competitive runners) showed that if anything, runners had long-term better cartilage health.
In the ultra crowd, lots of older folks as well; doesn't seem that their cartilage is wearing out prematurely. It's one of the most oommon but inaccurate myths about running injuries, that you have a finite number of miles in your cartilage, and thus destined for a wheelchair at age 65 just because you ran a lot when you were longer.
In the ultra crowd, lots of older folks as well; doesn't seem that their cartilage is wearing out prematurely. It's one of the most oommon but inaccurate myths about running injuries, that you have a finite number of miles in your cartilage, and thus destined for a wheelchair at age 65 just because you ran a lot when you were longer.
I just watched this:
They discussed ancient hunting techniques, or persistence hunting. Turns out they actually hunted in the heat of the day, when animals with coats (like all of them) would literally develop heat stroke after being chased for four hours, at which point a group of hunters could take down the animal armed only with hand axes.
Which has nothing to do with TT bikes, but I did learn something.
Also, this is before the evolution of **** sapiens ******cyclus.
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12-28-13, 10:27 PM
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12-28-13, 10:38 PM
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You can find the article yourself - google Nature and running or along those lines. You're the one interested, not me. It's a big time paper.
The theory is that humans because we have minds that can allow us to solve problems and perservere, can compesnate for our lack of super speed and lethal teeth, by using cunning, planning, and guile to track prey until they're exhausted or unaware that we're still hunting them. It's clearly worked evolutionarily.
Our intelligence would be meaningless if we didn't have enough basic locomotion and endurance to utilize it to hunt prey - this has been true for like 99% of human time; only in the last 1% of human time (less actually) have we developed enough machinery and infrastructure to not depend at all on physical prowess.
I think (but can't definitely recall) that the human bipedal locomotion was also unique amonst primates and even most mammals, and was a distinctive quality related to this as well.
Science.
The theory is that humans because we have minds that can allow us to solve problems and perservere, can compesnate for our lack of super speed and lethal teeth, by using cunning, planning, and guile to track prey until they're exhausted or unaware that we're still hunting them. It's clearly worked evolutionarily.
Our intelligence would be meaningless if we didn't have enough basic locomotion and endurance to utilize it to hunt prey - this has been true for like 99% of human time; only in the last 1% of human time (less actually) have we developed enough machinery and infrastructure to not depend at all on physical prowess.
I think (but can't definitely recall) that the human bipedal locomotion was also unique amonst primates and even most mammals, and was a distinctive quality related to this as well.
Science.
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Momento mori, amor fati.
Momento mori, amor fati.