dalava

Just use a statistical sample of one, myself: most of my flats are snake-bites which can be eliminated by simply using TL, without the sealant. In the 3 years I started using TL, I have yet to encounter a puncture with slow leak (I may have just jinxed myself for my commute home this evening). Now, I don't know for all the clincher flats, what the distribution is like for a) puncture with catastrophic failure, b) puncture with slow leaks, and c) pinch flats. If most of your flats are c), I would think running TL without sealant (to avoid the mess on top of saving weight) is certainly a good option.

chaadster

Sealant is not necessary for road bike tubeless tires. It's not used to "make up for" the lower mass of a bike tire compared to a car tire!

Sealant augments the flat resistance benefits of tubeless over tubed; in other words, you still get "full benefits" from TL even without sealant. I offered in the other thread to find that source that claimed tread punctures in tubeless tires without sealant actually tend to leak down more slowly than the same puncture in a tubed tire, but you said you'd seen that, so I'll just remind you of it.

I just don't understand what you think the "full benefits" of tubeless is if it's not enhanced flat resistance (even without sealant), lower rolling resistance, reduced risk of catastrophic blowout, greater security of tire on the rim, virtual elimination of pinch flats, ability to safely and successfully run lower pressure, enhanced comfort, and better handling (esp. on imperfect roads).

None of those benefits are related to sealant, and none go away without it; it's just easy to enhance the flat resistance of tubeless by adding sealant, but the benefit over tubed exists whether you add sealant or don't, simply to different degrees. If you can't afford to push an extra 120gm of sealant in exchanged for the security and peace of mind it affords, don't use it.

I think a lot of the hangup around using sealant comes from the conversion days, before tubeless ready rims, when sealant was needed to make the system airtight and function as intended. True tubeless rim/tires do not require sealant.

dalava

Good points. I can understand why some people are reluctant to switch because of replacement cost (TL ready wheels, new tires, tapes/valve stems), but not wanting to deal with "messy sealant" shouldn't be one of the reasons because, as you said clearly, the benefits of TL without sealant over tubed are clear to see.

chaadster

Yeah the get-in costs are real, and kinda high. TL tires are pricey. I think it's also rather difficult sussing out which rims are really the best, because of the non-standard nomenclature, like "tubeless ready" vs. "tubeless". I think, but I'm not sure, that a rim has to be called tubeless, straight-up, in order to not need sealant. Is that your understanding, too? Or is it that *some* tubeless ready rims need sealant and some don't (due to absence of manufacturing standards for tubeless)?

rpenmanparker 

Okay. Makes sense.

BoSoxYacht

In my area(AZ) thorn punctures are by far the #1 cause of flats. Going tubeless without sealant is almost pointless, and I haven't met anyone that runs them without sealant.

Marcus_Ti

Just use sealant.

Srsly, you'll lose air pressure faster overnight without sealant than with it. Because even "tubeless ready" rims or "two-way fit" rims will not seal air tight without sealant. Unless you enjoy having to pump 15PSI of air back into your roadie wheels every night.

chaadster

chaadster

Oh, I do use sealant. It's a no-brainer thing from my perspective. I'm not competitive enough to even contemplate the downside of a superfluous 100gm or so!

UnfilteredDregs

I lose a nominal 2-5psi overnight. If It was a hard ride, meaning in terms of tire impact, Sometimes the rear will be 15psi lower the next day...

I do bleed off and pump my wheels up before every ride...So I guess I enjoy it?

rpenmanparker 

Cute and about what I expected. Understand that I accept your reasoning, but I am at this time not terribly interested in tubeless for myself. I do feel I have learned a lot about it in the course of a few "discussions". And in fact, that is what I like best about contending a topic here.

Lazyass

Because the sealant clogs in the valve. And it can be a PIA to open the valve, I would have to use pliers sometimes. And the sealant can ball up in the bottom of the tire and give a nice lumpy ride for a couple of miles. I used Slime tubes on my mtb (that I promptly ditched) and from reading *honest* reviews of tubeless road owners I know that Stan's does the same thing. Just one of multiple reasons I will stick with tubes. And no one can convince me it's not a major PIA to mount the tires. I know some people want to justify their tubeless purchase and minimize the issues with them, and I can dig that, but I've read too much to ever be sold.

Phlorida

I'm glad that you said that. I am about a month into tubeless and they lose more air than I was expecting. Not an issue but my preconceived notion was that they would lose less. Hutchinson Sector 28, Shimano Ultegra wheelset and Orangeslime. It's early but I am sold on tubeless so far.

Marcus_Ti

A) Give your wheels a spin once a day if not riding. It'll keep spitballs from forming

2) Only open the valve with the stem at the 12'o'clock position to avoid valve clogs.


Your issues are user error primarily.

UnfilteredDregs

Slime or Seal? lol

UnfilteredDregs

(At the risk of sounding like a shill...) Not so with Orange Seal...and I did a lot of reading before jumping into it and had the same hesitation. Believe what you want but, mounting the tires is simple as spit. Not minimizing anything here, if anything I was ready to chuck hammers and knives if things didn't live up to expectations because of the $$$$. All I'm saying is that with the right stuff, it's great.

^^^ Correct...(Orange Seal supposedly doesn't form Stan-Boogers...) There are some basic maintenance tricks. I ended up replacing a few valve cores before realizing what I was doing wrong...

Phlorida

LOL, I stand corrected.

Issaquatch

I switched from Continental GP4000S to Schwalbe One tubeless in July. With about 1,000 miles on them, I'm happy. I weighed the wheels before and after, and it was a 140 gram weight penalty per wheel for the change (that includes sealant), though I did move up from 23mm tires to 25mm tires so that accounts for some of the increase. I don't mind the weight penalty. I don't think it makes me ride any slower because the wheels have lower rolling resistance. The tires are supple and roll well and riding with lower pressure smooths out the ride. I can get by with as low as 65-70 PSI per tire (25mm tires) with the tubeless, though I've found 80PSI to be the best mix of comfort and speed. They really shine on bad chip seal. I've had no flats so far and I've been much less careful riding around glass and small debris on the shoulder of the road.

I found the tubeless installation to be easy. The Schwalbe One's were actually a lot easier to get on the rim than my old GP4000s. YMMV.

So, I don't think this is a fad. Tire weights will probably drop as more wheel and tire manufacturers jump on board, and I think there is a large enough segment of the road cycling market that doesn't care about 100 grams of weight and would value the improved reliability, better ride quality, and reduced rolling resistance that tubeless can offer.

Marcus_Ti

Also helps having good basic tire-mounting technique. Although it depends on the wheel/tire combo.

My CK R45s/Belgium+ hoops I can bare-hand Fusion3 23mm tires onto. One of my roadie mates has Fulcrum 3 2-way-fit wheels run tubeless that need tools (tire irons and really good technique or a bead jack) with Fusion 3 23mm, but that is the norm for any Campy rim and tire combo I've seen/used.

bbattle

Weight weenies out in force on this thread.

I've got Bontrager R3 tires and tubeless ready rims but haven't gone the tubeless route due to laziness. If/when I do, I am extremely doubtful of being able to notice any weight penalty. On the other hand, the reported improvements in ride quality I might be able to notice.

And for sure, a reduction in flats would surely be noticed. I might even be tempted to not bring my extra tube, patch kit, tire levers, etc. which would then negate that weight penalty I didn't notice in the first place.

UnfilteredDregs

Yeah...I soap them up a bit and kind of massage the beads over the rim...I then inflate via compressor, locking the bead, check for tread centering and adjust as necessary. When I'm satisfied I add the sealant via the valve core.

UnfilteredDregs

I carry them for the other guys.

dalava

In terms of ease of mounting, tires matter less than rims, from my experience. The tires I have used are Schwalbe Ultremo ZX tubeless (easy), Fusion (ok), Fusion 3 (ok), Intensive (less easy), Schwalbe One (easy), and Maxxis Padrone (easiest).

I have successfully installed 4 sets of tubeless wheelsets, 2 of them are Stan's Alpha ZTR 340s. They are very easy to mount and inflate. No fuss. Same goes with Easton EA90SLX and Giant P-SLR1. I am struggling with a set of DT Swiss RR440 right now. They are a b!tch to work with and I've tried 3 different types of stem valves and re-taped a couple of times. So far, no luck. They are claimed to be tubeless-ready.

chaadster

Cool, and I would say the same for me; thought about things, learned some stuff, and had some diversion! Thanks, man.

Marcus_Ti

That is one set of tricks...but basic tire mounting means having the 1st bead in the center of the rim (valley of it actually) before/while mounting the second. As opposed to the 1st bead nearer/on the rim wall. Doing that is the difference between needing tire irons (or bead jack), and bare handing any old tire (tubeless or inner-tube-clincher). Lots of folks everyday miss that basic little thing.