Immersive waxing / it should be more popular
#1326
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The point is we are not talking about oil we are talking about immersive waxing.
If you really read through the links I posted you would see that their testing came away with two main points when it comes to candle wax versus the Silca, Mspeedwax, or other blends.
The candle wax is inferior as a lubricant to the "luxury" wax blends. It is also more expensive over 10,000 km at least compared to the Silca Hot Melt and a couple other blends.
Not sure how a 40 dollar bag of wax that will probably last me for the year if not longer is for rich people, but thanks for the laugh.
If you really read through the links I posted you would see that their testing came away with two main points when it comes to candle wax versus the Silca, Mspeedwax, or other blends.
The candle wax is inferior as a lubricant to the "luxury" wax blends. It is also more expensive over 10,000 km at least compared to the Silca Hot Melt and a couple other blends.
Not sure how a 40 dollar bag of wax that will probably last me for the year if not longer is for rich people, but thanks for the laugh.
And you are also buying into a pro-industry test of industry products. Maybe they work exactly as tested, maybe real world it doesn't matter which wax if you get caught even once in the rain.
I don't mind anyone buying whatever product they want. Just don't act like some company is doing you a special favor, and everyone who doesn't think so is some kind of idiot. People have been waxing chains for decades - all of a sudden it is popular and all the pundits come out of the woodwork to explain how smart they are and how they have invented something new. Putting additives in hot wax is also nothing new.
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You're making the argument that a Maserati is a junky car because it is a fraction of a second slower than a Ferrari, when they are all supercars.
And you are also buying into a pro-industry test of industry products. Maybe they work exactly as tested, maybe real world it doesn't matter which wax if you get caught even once in the rain.
I don't mind anyone buying whatever product they want. Just don't act like some company is doing you a special favor, and everyone who doesn't think so is some kind of idiot. People have been waxing chains for decades - all of a sudden it is popular and all the pundits come out of the woodwork to explain how smart they are and how they have invented something new. Putting additives in hot wax is also nothing new.
And you are also buying into a pro-industry test of industry products. Maybe they work exactly as tested, maybe real world it doesn't matter which wax if you get caught even once in the rain.
I don't mind anyone buying whatever product they want. Just don't act like some company is doing you a special favor, and everyone who doesn't think so is some kind of idiot. People have been waxing chains for decades - all of a sudden it is popular and all the pundits come out of the woodwork to explain how smart they are and how they have invented something new. Putting additives in hot wax is also nothing new.
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If only there was someone out there looking into this as far as quality of lubricant and cost over mileage.....
Zero Friction Cycling Lubricant Testing
But please, keep using your crappy candle wax, not supporting the cycling industry, and spending more over time. I don't mind at all.
Zero Friction Cycling Lubricant Testing
But please, keep using your crappy candle wax, not supporting the cycling industry, and spending more over time. I don't mind at all.
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OZ Cycle did a series of testing with this wax / PTFE blend and compared it with others big brand companies wax, such as Silca and MSW. Guess what was the conclusion?
Skip to 14:15 for the results. Of course, this is not scientific / empirical data, but as I said a few posts ago, I trust the guy.
If any of you are interested to save money and get the same or better efficiency, here's the link to the video explaining the recipe and benefits:
Last edited by eduskator; 04-03-24 at 05:57 AM.
#1330
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But it's not. Do I use candle wax? No. I buy blocks of food grade paraffin wax and I add PTFE at a 10:1 ratio. Would I use candle wax if I couldn't afford to spend a few more bucks on paraffin wax? Yes. It would most likely do the same job.
OZ Cycle did a series of testing with this wax / PTFE blend and compared it with others big brand companies wax, such as Silca and MSW. Guess what was the conclusion?
Skip to 14:15 for the results. Of course, this is not scientific / empirical data, but as I said a few posts ago, I trust the guy.
If any of you are interested to save money and get the same or better efficiency, here's the link to the video explaining the recipe and benefits:
OZ Cycle did a series of testing with this wax / PTFE blend and compared it with others big brand companies wax, such as Silca and MSW. Guess what was the conclusion?
Skip to 14:15 for the results. Of course, this is not scientific / empirical data, but as I said a few posts ago, I trust the guy.
If any of you are interested to save money and get the same or better efficiency, here's the link to the video explaining the recipe and benefits:
On the topic of food grade paraffin vs candles, the food grade is better. Candle's paraffin oil content can be anything but it's definitely much higher than food grade paraffin. Also candles often contain stearic acid which hasn't been tested in chain use at all. But by my experience with stearic acid I'd maintain that it does not improve the quality of the wax as a chain lubricant.
There are different types of paraffin. Some are soft, some are hard, some have high melting point whereas others have low melting point and all said examples can have the same oil content. Then there is the group of microcrystalline waxes which are even more varied in properties.
If a company wants to make a good chain wax they'll contact a factory and ask them which of their waxes would work best as a chain wax. Or perhaps which combination of paraffins and microcrystalline waxes would work best. Perhaps not all wax manufacturers make the effort, but some definitely do. Rex and MSwax new formula are a pretty good indication of that.
The same goes with ski waxes. You could wax skis with paraffin, buuut they'd suck for certain conditions and they'd be fine in others. Or you could get temperature specific waxes which work for a given temperature range and moisture condition. Sadly chain waxes aren't quite there yet. There aren't winter and summer waxes yet.
To summarize, It's more complicated than just looking at paraffin and thinking it's one substance.
You mentioned yourself, that Oz Cycle test isn't scientific and it definitely isn't. There's more uncontrolled factors than there are controlled ones. Riding in the wild with uncontrolled power, uncontrolled conditions and wind, uncontrolled wet exposure, uncontrolled wax intervals, uncontrolled maintenance after wet rides, etc.
Also he didn't take zero measurements of the chains. He just checked that a completely different chain didn't have stretch as new. Yay...
And he used different bikes! Different tires! Did he have calibrated odometers or did he use GPS data?
I mean come on! One of the bikes is an aero bike with what seems to be a different fit. It's not exactly a huge stretch of imagination to come to a conclusion that perhaps the aero bike required less overall energy (and thus less overall wear) to achieve the 3000km mark. If the riding position on said bike is more aerodynamic the differences in "fuel mileage" and chain wear could be pretty darn significant. Also unsurprisingly he put the homemade wax on the aero bike...
The only conclusion you can take from that is that both chains had wax on them.
And even then the results are dated, because MSwax has a new formula which is miles better than the old one.
ps. as a small disclaimer, I haven't used any of the fancy schmancy expensive waxes. But attempting to discredit them with data that's not actual testing data when there is actual real testing data available just grinds my gears a bit.
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#1331
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The whole idea of sowing the environment with PTFE powder because of marginal lubrication gains is short sighted and frankly selfish. Also I'm not at all sure that high a ratio of PTFE in wax makes any sort of positive difference. And on top of that you could get the same effect with tungsten disulfide, molybdenum disulfide or graphite powder, none of which are microplastics.
On the topic of food grade paraffin vs candles, the food grade is better. Candle's paraffin oil content can be anything but it's definitely much higher than food grade paraffin. Also candles often contain stearic acid which hasn't been tested in chain use at all. But by my experience with stearic acid I'd maintain that it does not improve the quality of the wax as a chain lubricant.
There are different types of paraffin. Some are soft, some are hard, some have high melting point whereas others have low melting point and all said examples can have the same oil content. Then there is the group of microcrystalline waxes which are even more varied in properties.
If a company wants to make a good chain wax they'll contact a factory and ask them which of their waxes would work best as a chain wax. Or perhaps which combination of paraffins and microcrystalline waxes would work best. Perhaps not all wax manufacturers make the effort, but some definitely do. Rex and MSwax new formula are a pretty good indication of that.
The same goes with ski waxes. You could wax skis with paraffin, buuut they'd suck for certain conditions and they'd be fine in others. Or you could get temperature specific waxes which work for a given temperature range and moisture condition. Sadly chain waxes aren't quite there yet. There aren't winter and summer waxes yet.
To summarize, It's more complicated than just looking at paraffin and thinking it's one substance.
You mentioned yourself, that Oz Cycle test isn't scientific and it definitely isn't. There's more uncontrolled factors than there are controlled ones. Riding in the wild with uncontrolled power, uncontrolled conditions and wind, uncontrolled wet exposure, uncontrolled wax intervals, uncontrolled maintenance after wet rides, etc.
Also he didn't take zero measurements of the chains. He just checked that a completely different chain didn't have stretch as new. Yay...
And he used different bikes! Different tires! Did he have calibrated odometers or did he use GPS data?
I mean come on! One of the bikes is an aero bike with what seems to be a different fit. It's not exactly a huge stretch of imagination to come to a conclusion that perhaps the aero bike required less overall energy (and thus less overall wear) to achieve the 3000km mark. If the riding position on said bike is more aerodynamic the differences in "fuel mileage" and chain wear could be pretty darn significant. Also unsurprisingly he put the homemade wax on the aero bike...
The only conclusion you can take from that is that both chains had wax on them.
And even then the results are dated, because MSwax has a new formula which is miles better than the old one.
ps. as a small disclaimer, I haven't used any of the fancy schmancy expensive waxes. But attempting to discredit them with data that's not actual testing data when there is actual real testing data available just grinds my gears a bit.
On the topic of food grade paraffin vs candles, the food grade is better. Candle's paraffin oil content can be anything but it's definitely much higher than food grade paraffin. Also candles often contain stearic acid which hasn't been tested in chain use at all. But by my experience with stearic acid I'd maintain that it does not improve the quality of the wax as a chain lubricant.
There are different types of paraffin. Some are soft, some are hard, some have high melting point whereas others have low melting point and all said examples can have the same oil content. Then there is the group of microcrystalline waxes which are even more varied in properties.
If a company wants to make a good chain wax they'll contact a factory and ask them which of their waxes would work best as a chain wax. Or perhaps which combination of paraffins and microcrystalline waxes would work best. Perhaps not all wax manufacturers make the effort, but some definitely do. Rex and MSwax new formula are a pretty good indication of that.
The same goes with ski waxes. You could wax skis with paraffin, buuut they'd suck for certain conditions and they'd be fine in others. Or you could get temperature specific waxes which work for a given temperature range and moisture condition. Sadly chain waxes aren't quite there yet. There aren't winter and summer waxes yet.
To summarize, It's more complicated than just looking at paraffin and thinking it's one substance.
You mentioned yourself, that Oz Cycle test isn't scientific and it definitely isn't. There's more uncontrolled factors than there are controlled ones. Riding in the wild with uncontrolled power, uncontrolled conditions and wind, uncontrolled wet exposure, uncontrolled wax intervals, uncontrolled maintenance after wet rides, etc.
Also he didn't take zero measurements of the chains. He just checked that a completely different chain didn't have stretch as new. Yay...
And he used different bikes! Different tires! Did he have calibrated odometers or did he use GPS data?
I mean come on! One of the bikes is an aero bike with what seems to be a different fit. It's not exactly a huge stretch of imagination to come to a conclusion that perhaps the aero bike required less overall energy (and thus less overall wear) to achieve the 3000km mark. If the riding position on said bike is more aerodynamic the differences in "fuel mileage" and chain wear could be pretty darn significant. Also unsurprisingly he put the homemade wax on the aero bike...
The only conclusion you can take from that is that both chains had wax on them.
And even then the results are dated, because MSwax has a new formula which is miles better than the old one.
ps. as a small disclaimer, I haven't used any of the fancy schmancy expensive waxes. But attempting to discredit them with data that's not actual testing data when there is actual real testing data available just grinds my gears a bit.
For the records, I'm not trying to discredit anyone, however, but I firmly believe that home made wax blend is - as better or better - than the big brand chain wax companies. My blend costs me a fifth or even a tenth of theirs and I am satisfied with what I am getting out of it in terms of efficiency, quietness and cleanliness.
Last edited by eduskator; 04-03-24 at 06:05 AM.
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#1332
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But it's not. Do I use candle wax? No. I buy blocks of food grade paraffin wax and I add PTFE at a 10:1 ratio. Would I use candle wax if I couldn't afford to spend a few more bucks on paraffin wax? Yes. It would most likely do the same job. Chances are that big companies such as Silca and MSW are sourcing their paraffin from the same plants as the dollar store candle companies... Bottom line, wax is wax, right?
OZ Cycle did a series of testing with this wax / PTFE blend and compared it with others big brand companies wax, such as Silca and MSW. Guess what was the conclusion?
Skip to 14:15 for the results. Of course, this is not scientific / empirical data, but as I said a few posts ago, I trust the guy.
Is this the ultimate bicycle chain lube? - Test results (youtube.com)
If any of you are interested to save money and get the same or better efficiency, here's the link to the video explaining the recipe and benefits:
Ultimate Chain wax - make it yourself (youtube.com)
OZ Cycle did a series of testing with this wax / PTFE blend and compared it with others big brand companies wax, such as Silca and MSW. Guess what was the conclusion?
Skip to 14:15 for the results. Of course, this is not scientific / empirical data, but as I said a few posts ago, I trust the guy.
Is this the ultimate bicycle chain lube? - Test results (youtube.com)
If any of you are interested to save money and get the same or better efficiency, here's the link to the video explaining the recipe and benefits:
Ultimate Chain wax - make it yourself (youtube.com)
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#1334
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Very good analysis.
For the records, I'm not trying to discredit anyone, however, but I firmly believe that home made wax blend is - as better or better - than the big brand chain wax companies. My blend costs me a fifth or even a tenth of theirs and I am satisfied with what I am getting out of it in terms of efficiency, quietness and cleanliness.
For the records, I'm not trying to discredit anyone, however, but I firmly believe that home made wax blend is - as better or better - than the big brand chain wax companies. My blend costs me a fifth or even a tenth of theirs and I am satisfied with what I am getting out of it in terms of efficiency, quietness and cleanliness.
While the actual chain waxes may not offer five times the performance, they do offer better performance than home made waxes that contain either candle wax or food grade paraffin. With the more expensive product you get longer rewaxing intervals, better wear life for chains, better resistance against the elements, higher efficiency etc.
And they're usually not environmentally harmful as none of the big brands I know of use microplastics.
Bang for buck home made stuff may take the win if that's all you care about. Personally the one thing I'm most interested in is rewaxing intervals in challenging conditions. And regular ol' paraffin isn't great there.
#1335
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It should be noted that NOS period-correct food grade wax is available for C&V crowd.
From back when Pittsburgh had one of the seven sisters.
From back when Pittsburgh had one of the seven sisters.
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Where is the actual data "clearly" showing this?
While the actual chain waxes may not offer five times the performance, they do offer better performance than home made waxes that contain either candle wax or food grade paraffin. With the more expensive product you get longer rewaxing intervals, better wear life for chains, better resistance against the elements, higher efficiency etc.
Where is the actual data "clearly" showing this?
And sicne no one really knows exactly what works best for each individual ... it is possible that using the expensive wax and taking that one extra ride, that extra forty or seventy miles, actually causes more wear than re-applying the cheap, home-made stuff one ride sooner .... or not.
None of the science would hold up in a masters' program ... glad people did what they did, and for me, homemade paraffin/teflon is just fine ... but really, none of us know. We are all just deciding what we like and doing it.
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#1341
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So I tried my first chain waxing today. Last week I picked up a small crock pot at Goodwill for $2.50, bought two pounds of wax and some teflon from Amazon. I used one pound in the crock pot and "eyeballed" the teflon at about 15-ish grams.
I actually did three chains today but the first one I did went on my Shiv and I put in a 34 mile ride. Can't say I really noticed a difference, but I wasn't expecting to notice a difference either. The main reason I am giving this a shot is because I live in a dry, dusty, sandy climate and chain maintenance thus far always results in cleaning a lot of oily, gritty gunk off the chain. My main objective is just a clean drivetrain with some extended chain life.
We shall see.
I actually did three chains today but the first one I did went on my Shiv and I put in a 34 mile ride. Can't say I really noticed a difference, but I wasn't expecting to notice a difference either. The main reason I am giving this a shot is because I live in a dry, dusty, sandy climate and chain maintenance thus far always results in cleaning a lot of oily, gritty gunk off the chain. My main objective is just a clean drivetrain with some extended chain life.
We shall see.
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So I tried my first chain waxing today. Last week I picked up a small crock pot at Goodwill for $2.50, bought two pounds of wax and some teflon from Amazon. I used one pound in the crock pot and "eyeballed" the teflon at about 15-ish grams.
I actually did three chains today but the first one I did went on my Shiv and I put in a 34 mile ride. Can't say I really noticed a difference, but I wasn't expecting to notice a difference either. The main reason I am giving this a shot is because I live in a dry, dusty, sandy climate and chain maintenance thus far always results in cleaning a lot of oily, gritty gunk off the chain. My main objective is just a clean drivetrain with some extended chain life.
We shall see.
I actually did three chains today but the first one I did went on my Shiv and I put in a 34 mile ride. Can't say I really noticed a difference, but I wasn't expecting to notice a difference either. The main reason I am giving this a shot is because I live in a dry, dusty, sandy climate and chain maintenance thus far always results in cleaning a lot of oily, gritty gunk off the chain. My main objective is just a clean drivetrain with some extended chain life.
We shall see.
#1343
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So I tried my first chain waxing today. Last week I picked up a small crock pot at Goodwill for $2.50, bought two pounds of wax and some teflon from Amazon. I used one pound in the crock pot and "eyeballed" the teflon at about 15-ish grams.
I actually did three chains today but the first one I did went on my Shiv and I put in a 34 mile ride. Can't say I really noticed a difference, but I wasn't expecting to notice a difference either. The main reason I am giving this a shot is because I live in a dry, dusty, sandy climate and chain maintenance thus far always results in cleaning a lot of oily, gritty gunk off the chain. My main objective is just a clean drivetrain with some extended chain life.
We shall see.
I actually did three chains today but the first one I did went on my Shiv and I put in a 34 mile ride. Can't say I really noticed a difference, but I wasn't expecting to notice a difference either. The main reason I am giving this a shot is because I live in a dry, dusty, sandy climate and chain maintenance thus far always results in cleaning a lot of oily, gritty gunk off the chain. My main objective is just a clean drivetrain with some extended chain life.
We shall see.
#1344
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Speaking of which, I rewaxed mine this weekend and went for a ride yesterday. I had forgotten how quiet it was for the 1st 100kms.
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my last ultegra chain using rocknroll gold lasted 1800 miles that was the chain that came on my bike. I just went over 3000 miles on my silca hot waxed ultegra chain purchased at rei. there is not perceivable wear yet. it has been hot waxed 3X with the silca drip wax in between. If nothing else it makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
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my last ultegra chain using rocknroll gold lasted 1800 miles that was the chain that came on my bike. I just went over 3000 miles on my silca hot waxed ultegra chain purchased at rei. there is not perceivable wear yet. it has been hot waxed 3X with the silca drip wax in between. If nothing else it makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
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my last ultegra chain using rocknroll gold lasted 1800 miles that was the chain that came on my bike. I just went over 3000 miles on my silca hot waxed ultegra chain purchased at rei. there is not perceivable wear yet. it has been hot waxed 3X with the silca drip wax in between. If nothing else it makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
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There are more components (the rollers if I am not mistaken) treated with Sil-Tec on DA chains, which allegedly reduces the adherence of wax and additives. Not worth the extra $ IMO.
Last edited by eduskator; 04-18-24 at 05:14 AM.
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