Don't Ride in the Middle to Left Side of the Lane
06-22-12, 07:23 AM
#451
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That's very selfish of you. Pissed off motorists take their anger out on cyclists on a regular basis and often with deadly consequences. There are a lot more motorists than cyclists and that equates to money and political pull. Don't think for a second that laws can be drafted to severely restrict our use of the roads. When I am a motorist I make an effort to blend harmoniously with other traffic. That doesn't change when I hop on my bike. You militants aren't doing us much good on the advocacy front.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
06-22-12, 07:27 AM
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That's why you have to notice them first. Situational awareness is a more proactive approach to your safety than any delusion of your visibility to others.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
06-22-12, 07:29 AM
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Make an effort, fine...but don't assume they see you no matter what you do, without positive confirmation.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
06-22-12, 07:34 AM
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Or of that person who seems to be looking right at you but in reality doesn't see you.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
06-22-12, 07:40 AM
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Sorry man, but this is backasswards to how I have been riding for decades. Proactive beats reactive every time.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
06-22-12, 07:48 AM
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Those are the bad ones. If they slow at all, it's imperceptible, they aren't turning from a dedicated turning lane and they don't give a turn signal. It's also a common cause of car on car collisions. I approach all intersections on high alert and at often reduced speed.
Do you think I'm pretty? I feel pretty.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
06-22-12, 09:02 AM
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It all depends on the road profile width and condition. First and foremost IT IS MY LANE!!!!! Second if there is no shoulder IT IS MY LANE!!! Third if there is no shoulder I need to ride in the middle or even to the left of the lane to keep cars from trying to crowd by and force me off the road.
06-22-12, 09:11 AM
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It all depends on the road profile width and condition. First and foremost IT IS MY LANE!!!!! Second if there is no shoulder IT IS MY LANE!!! Third if there is no shoulder I need to ride in the middle or even to the left of the lane to keep cars from trying to crowd by and force me off the road.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
06-23-12, 10:35 PM
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I didn't say they were too narrow to share 'safely.' That's a subjective judgment. I said they were so narrow that it would be physically impossible to fit a cyclist beside a typical vehicle. There's not enough space for a small vehicle and a two-foot-wide cyclist to physically fit side-by-side, at any speed, even 0. So if any kind of lane-sharing is going on there I would say your lanes are at least 10 or 11 feet. Still pretty narrow though.
I suggest all the time that people should take a tape measure out and check lanes, paths, etc. Almost everybody has a weirdly exaggerated sense of width for things on the ground. Ten feet looks like 8 feet. 15 feet looks like 10. Most people think their 5- or 6-foot sidewalks are 4-foot sidewalks. Etc. I don't know why but maybe it's because we think of something 7 feet as being really, really tall. Turns out if you lay a 7-footer on the ground across the typical suburban sidewalk, he's just six inches over the edge on either side. It's kind of disappointing. Brings down the whole human race. We have some 7-foot wide bike lanes here in Denver. They don't seem Lou Alcinder wide.
I suggest all the time that people should take a tape measure out and check lanes, paths, etc. Almost everybody has a weirdly exaggerated sense of width for things on the ground. Ten feet looks like 8 feet. 15 feet looks like 10. Most people think their 5- or 6-foot sidewalks are 4-foot sidewalks. Etc. I don't know why but maybe it's because we think of something 7 feet as being really, really tall. Turns out if you lay a 7-footer on the ground across the typical suburban sidewalk, he's just six inches over the edge on either side. It's kind of disappointing. Brings down the whole human race. We have some 7-foot wide bike lanes here in Denver. They don't seem Lou Alcinder wide.
The "measuring tape" that I've used is looking at the cars that are in the lane in front of me how much/little space is left over on either side of the car.
06-23-12, 10:43 PM
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I encountered one of those the other day.
First he was on the sidewalk, when he ran out of sidewalk he was in the gutter pan so close to the curb that I'm surprised that he wasn't rubbing the sidewalls of his tires on the curb. Then he's back on the sidewalk until it runs out again. Add to this no lights, and he's running red lights and stop signs.
He catches up to me and tells me that because I'm riding safely, predictably, and legally. That "I'm" the one who is riding "dangerously" as well as according to him "illegally."
First he was on the sidewalk, when he ran out of sidewalk he was in the gutter pan so close to the curb that I'm surprised that he wasn't rubbing the sidewalls of his tires on the curb. Then he's back on the sidewalk until it runs out again. Add to this no lights, and he's running red lights and stop signs.
He catches up to me and tells me that because I'm riding safely, predictably, and legally. That "I'm" the one who is riding "dangerously" as well as according to him "illegally."
06-23-12, 11:00 PM
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If I understand the type of collision you had, it is not terribly uncommon, and somewhat preventable.
I actually cover this in my book Art of [Urban] Cycling, in a chapter called "Corner Cutters." [p. 104-5 in the second edition.] And there is even a diagram of your collision, which I drew myself.
Goes a little something like this:
" ... Suddenly -- a screech of tires from your right side. A car turning left from the far side of the boulevard carves directly at you. This guy's spotted a minuscule gap in the oncoming traffic, and, rather than wait ten seconds, has chosen to risk the health of several motorists, including himself, to shoot the gap. His line is taking him directly toward the apex of the corner, across the wrong side of the street, directly at your front wheel. Unfortunately, he hasn't seen you at all, he's so focused on oncoming traffic."
" ... The corner-cutting phenomenon is a good reason to roll slowly toward intersections, to be patient, and to stay 5 feet or more back from the corner, just out of the cutter's favored path. That way the cyclist's well-being is not dependent on drivers who don't think twice about who or what might be waiting for them around the corner."
Practical application of a defensive, vigilant mindset. Lots more where that came from in my book if anyone's interested.
I actually cover this in my book Art of [Urban] Cycling, in a chapter called "Corner Cutters." [p. 104-5 in the second edition.] And there is even a diagram of your collision, which I drew myself.
Goes a little something like this:
" ... Suddenly -- a screech of tires from your right side. A car turning left from the far side of the boulevard carves directly at you. This guy's spotted a minuscule gap in the oncoming traffic, and, rather than wait ten seconds, has chosen to risk the health of several motorists, including himself, to shoot the gap. His line is taking him directly toward the apex of the corner, across the wrong side of the street, directly at your front wheel. Unfortunately, he hasn't seen you at all, he's so focused on oncoming traffic."
" ... The corner-cutting phenomenon is a good reason to roll slowly toward intersections, to be patient, and to stay 5 feet or more back from the corner, just out of the cutter's favored path. That way the cyclist's well-being is not dependent on drivers who don't think twice about who or what might be waiting for them around the corner."
Practical application of a defensive, vigilant mindset. Lots more where that came from in my book if anyone's interested.
Also this particular intersection/roads do not generally see much in the way in traffic, which is one of the reasons that I ride it. Even though it is less then a block away from a shopping center. As most traffic either goes out of one of the rear driveways (on 1st St. N.) or they turn right and go to 38/40th Ave. (it's all the same road as at the intersection of 1st St. it's 40th Ave, then as one travels west it changes designations becoming 38th Ave. N. at the intersection of 4th St.)
06-24-12, 05:23 AM
#462
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I think I agree with what you're saying there. The lanes on the road that I was on when I had the smallish semi pull up behind me, if I'd been riding in the manner that it appears that Bek supports, there wouldn't have been any room for me and the truck to pass each other safely.
The "measuring tape" that I've used is looking at the cars that are in the lane in front of me how much/little space is left over on either side of the car.
The "measuring tape" that I've used is looking at the cars that are in the lane in front of me how much/little space is left over on either side of the car.
I have mentioned that florida's substandard width lane clause explicitly includes, is predicated and inseparable from a riders' duty to be reasonable when deciding their road position.
riders in florida can ride away from the right when reasonably necessary to avoid unsafe conditions. if you were being reasonable about your choice of lane position you adhered to the spirit and the letter of the law governing your road position.
It is an overreach of cyclists rights to think that anytime 'a lane is too narrow to share' a rider can position themselves anywhere to the right of the lane line unwaveringly. That is a too broad interpretation of traffic laws, that ignores the clear dictate to be reasonable about when and how far to ride away from the edge.
this 'reasonabless' dictate is in black and white in florida traffic statutes, explicitly written into the statute, that encompasses and reiterates the 'reasonableness' standard we all operate under when choosing a position away from the right.
Cyclists in florida must ride as far right as practicable except when reasonably necessary....."When reasonably necessary to avoid any condition, including, but not limited to, a fixed or moving object, parked or moving vehicle, bicycle, pedestrian, animal, surface hazard, or substandard-width lane, that makes it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge. "
This is, OF COURSE, situational, but a rider MUST be reasonable and have a reasonable need to ride away from a safe position to the right to more fully engage the lane.
Distilled to their most basic, the laws governing bicyclists lane position (both "bike FRAP" and "smv FRAP" laws), taken broadly, mean 'don't ride to the left of the lane' when travelling slower than other traffic unless you have a reasonable need to do so.
(Yesterday on my ride, i rode in the left tire track thru our downtown. However, there were reasonably compelling reasons for me to do so at that time and place.)
Last edited by Bekologist; 06-24-12 at 06:59 AM.
06-24-12, 09:18 AM
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You are lost and tilting at windmills if you think what 'manner of riding bek supports' implies I'm suggesting you endanger yourself while riding.
I have mentioned that florida's substandard width lane clause explicitly includes, is predicated and inseparable from a riders' duty to be reasonable when deciding their road position.
riders in florida can ride away from the right when reasonably necessary to avoid unsafe conditions. if you were being reasonable about your choice of lane position you adhered to the spirit and the letter of the law governing your road position.
It is an overreach of cyclists rights to think that anytime 'a lane is too narrow to share' a rider can position themselves anywhere to the right of the lane line unwaveringly. That is a too broad interpretation of traffic laws, that ignores the clear dictate to be reasonable about when and how far to ride away from the edge.
this 'reasonabless' dictate is in black and white in florida traffic statutes, explicitly written into the statute, that encompasses and reiterates the 'reasonableness' standard we all operate under when choosing a position away from the right.
Cyclists in florida must ride as far right as practicable except when reasonably necessary....."When reasonably necessary to avoid any condition, including, but not limited to, a fixed or moving object, parked or moving vehicle, bicycle, pedestrian, animal, surface hazard, or substandard-width lane, that makes it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge. "
This is, OF COURSE, situational, but a rider MUST be reasonable and have a reasonable need to ride away from a safe position to the right to more fully engage the lane.
Distilled to their most basic, the laws governing bicyclists lane position (both "bike FRAP" and "smv FRAP" laws), taken broadly, mean 'don't ride to the left of the lane' when travelling slower than other traffic unless you have a reasonable need to do so.
(Yesterday on my ride, i rode in the left tire track thru our downtown. However, there were reasonably compelling reasons for me to do so at that time and place.)
I have mentioned that florida's substandard width lane clause explicitly includes, is predicated and inseparable from a riders' duty to be reasonable when deciding their road position.
riders in florida can ride away from the right when reasonably necessary to avoid unsafe conditions. if you were being reasonable about your choice of lane position you adhered to the spirit and the letter of the law governing your road position.
It is an overreach of cyclists rights to think that anytime 'a lane is too narrow to share' a rider can position themselves anywhere to the right of the lane line unwaveringly. That is a too broad interpretation of traffic laws, that ignores the clear dictate to be reasonable about when and how far to ride away from the edge.
this 'reasonabless' dictate is in black and white in florida traffic statutes, explicitly written into the statute, that encompasses and reiterates the 'reasonableness' standard we all operate under when choosing a position away from the right.
Cyclists in florida must ride as far right as practicable except when reasonably necessary....."When reasonably necessary to avoid any condition, including, but not limited to, a fixed or moving object, parked or moving vehicle, bicycle, pedestrian, animal, surface hazard, or substandard-width lane, that makes it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge. "
This is, OF COURSE, situational, but a rider MUST be reasonable and have a reasonable need to ride away from a safe position to the right to more fully engage the lane.
Distilled to their most basic, the laws governing bicyclists lane position (both "bike FRAP" and "smv FRAP" laws), taken broadly, mean 'don't ride to the left of the lane' when travelling slower than other traffic unless you have a reasonable need to do so.
(Yesterday on my ride, i rode in the left tire track thru our downtown. However, there were reasonably compelling reasons for me to do so at that time and place.)
06-24-12, 10:00 AM
#464
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Originally Posted by John Forester
Bek's argument here is that obeying the FRAP law is both the only legal and the only reasonable method.
why, that's not what I'm saying, John.
But you are right in your razzle- obeying traffic law is the only legal and reasonable method of riding a bike.
Originally Posted by John Forester
Bek has never provided any reason, except his fear of rejection by motorists, to support his argument for FRAP instead of occupying a lane.
)
Last edited by Bekologist; 06-24-12 at 10:14 AM.
06-24-12, 02:02 PM
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???
why, that's not what I'm saying, John.
But you are right in your razzle- obeying traffic law is the only legal and reasonable method of riding a bike.
wrong, again. I've amply outlined the reasonable man standard, and how it applies to cyclists when determining 'how far from the right is right?' . (In the paragraphs you quoted of mine, i refer to, and explain florida's explicit 'reasonableness' clause as an illustrative example. I suggest you go back and read them again, something must not have sunk in?)
why, that's not what I'm saying, John.
But you are right in your razzle- obeying traffic law is the only legal and reasonable method of riding a bike.
wrong, again. I've amply outlined the reasonable man standard, and how it applies to cyclists when determining 'how far from the right is right?' . (In the paragraphs you quoted of mine, i refer to, and explain florida's explicit 'reasonableness' clause as an illustrative example. I suggest you go back and read them again, something must not have sunk in?
)
06-24-12, 02:15 PM
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No, Bek, neither you nor any legislature with which I am familiar has provided factual evidence to support whatever might be considered to be a reasonable lateral position for a cyclist. So far as can be determined, this supposed reasonableness concerning cyclists' lateral position within a lane is nothing more than a feeling in the mind of a motorist or a motoring legislator about how he feels cyclists should conduct themselves....
the reasonable person standard
Last edited by Bekologist; 06-24-12 at 02:21 PM.
06-24-12, 02:40 PM
#467
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The only reason for a motorist to get that stupid, is in a medical emergency. Even then, it is stupid for them to behave that way. Because they put cyclists, out; and other motorists in danger by being inexperienced at driving fast, and doing something stupid. Like when I saw the accident happen right next to me, several weeks ago. Where the driver behind me had sped up getting into the passing lane too fast, and ended up pitting himself when hit the H2 Hummer in front of him.
06-24-12, 02:44 PM
#468
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I never said, or implied, not to ride proactively. That is what I am doing when I 'take the lane'. Riding 'reactively', only becomes an addendum to riding 'proactively', pursuant to an element in a given situation.
06-24-12, 02:46 PM
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You are lost and tilting at windmills if you think what 'manner of riding bek supports' implies I'm suggesting you endanger yourself while riding.
I have mentioned that florida's substandard width lane clause explicitly includes, is predicated and inseparable from a riders' duty to be reasonable when deciding their road position.
riders in florida can ride away from the right when reasonably necessary to avoid unsafe conditions. if you were being reasonable about your choice of lane position you adhered to the spirit and the letter of the law governing your road position.
It is an overreach of cyclists rights to think that anytime 'a lane is too narrow to share' a rider can position themselves anywhere to the right of the lane line unwaveringly. That is a too broad interpretation of traffic laws, that ignores the clear dictate to be reasonable about when and how far to ride away from the edge.
this 'reasonabless' dictate is in black and white in florida traffic statutes, explicitly written into the statute, that encompasses and reiterates the 'reasonableness' standard we all operate under when choosing a position away from the right.
Cyclists in florida must ride as far right as practicable except when reasonably necessary....."When reasonably necessary to avoid any condition, including, but not limited to, a fixed or moving object, parked or moving vehicle, bicycle, pedestrian, animal, surface hazard, or substandard-width lane, that makes it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge. "
This is, OF COURSE, situational, but a rider MUST be reasonable and have a reasonable need to ride away from a safe position to the right to more fully engage the lane.
Distilled to their most basic, the laws governing bicyclists lane position (both "bike FRAP" and "smv FRAP" laws), taken broadly, mean 'don't ride to the left of the lane' when travelling slower than other traffic unless you have a reasonable need to do so.
(Yesterday on my ride, i rode in the left tire track thru our downtown. However, there were reasonably compelling reasons for me to do so at that time and place.)
I have mentioned that florida's substandard width lane clause explicitly includes, is predicated and inseparable from a riders' duty to be reasonable when deciding their road position.
riders in florida can ride away from the right when reasonably necessary to avoid unsafe conditions. if you were being reasonable about your choice of lane position you adhered to the spirit and the letter of the law governing your road position.
It is an overreach of cyclists rights to think that anytime 'a lane is too narrow to share' a rider can position themselves anywhere to the right of the lane line unwaveringly. That is a too broad interpretation of traffic laws, that ignores the clear dictate to be reasonable about when and how far to ride away from the edge.
this 'reasonabless' dictate is in black and white in florida traffic statutes, explicitly written into the statute, that encompasses and reiterates the 'reasonableness' standard we all operate under when choosing a position away from the right.
Cyclists in florida must ride as far right as practicable except when reasonably necessary....."When reasonably necessary to avoid any condition, including, but not limited to, a fixed or moving object, parked or moving vehicle, bicycle, pedestrian, animal, surface hazard, or substandard-width lane, that makes it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge. "
This is, OF COURSE, situational, but a rider MUST be reasonable and have a reasonable need to ride away from a safe position to the right to more fully engage the lane.
Distilled to their most basic, the laws governing bicyclists lane position (both "bike FRAP" and "smv FRAP" laws), taken broadly, mean 'don't ride to the left of the lane' when travelling slower than other traffic unless you have a reasonable need to do so.
(Yesterday on my ride, i rode in the left tire track thru our downtown. However, there were reasonably compelling reasons for me to do so at that time and place.)
That entire subsection reads as follows:
(5)(a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride in the lane marked for bicycle use or, if no lane is marked for bicycle use, as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:1. When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.
2. When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
3. When reasonably necessary to avoid any condition, including, but not limited to, a fixed or moving object, parked or moving vehicle, bicycle, pedestrian, animal, surface hazard, or substandard-width lane, that makes it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge. For the purposes of this subsection, a “substandard-width lane” is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and another vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.
(b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a one-way highway with two or more marked traffic lanes may ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of such roadway as practicable.
It makes it very clear to me that the law considers a road with substandard width lanes to be a reasonable reason NOT to ride FRAP. Given that it is in the law I do not understand why you keep trying to argue that even on a road with substandard width lanes that a cyclist has a duty to ride FRAP. That is NOT what the law says.
Are you sure that you're a cycling advocate as well as a cycling savoy instructor? Your interpretation of not only Florida law but the law in other states seems to favor the motorist and NOT the cyclist.
Why do you consistently interpret laws in favor of motorists instead of cyclists?
06-24-12, 02:48 PM
#470
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I never assume they do. Grabbing(and keeping) a motorist's attention is constant. It doesn't stop.
06-24-12, 03:14 PM
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It makes it very clear to me that the law considers a road with substandard width lanes to be a reasonable reason NOT to ride FRAP. Given that it is in the law I do not understand why you keep trying to argue that even on a road with substandard width lanes that a cyclist has a duty to ride FRAP. That is NOT what the law says.
Are you sure that you're a cycling advocate as well as a cycling savoy instructor? Your interpretation of not only Florida law but the law in other states seems to favor the motorist and NOT the cyclist.
Why do you consistently interpret laws in favor of motorists instead of cyclists?
Are you sure that you're a cycling advocate as well as a cycling savoy instructor? Your interpretation of not only Florida law but the law in other states seems to favor the motorist and NOT the cyclist.
Why do you consistently interpret laws in favor of motorists instead of cyclists?
b) that's not what I'm saying; and
c) talking about the applicability of the reasonableness standard when deciding how far right is right isn't 'interpreting laws in favor of motorists'!
Last edited by Bekologist; 06-24-12 at 03:17 PM.
06-24-12, 04:07 PM
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06-24-12, 04:31 PM
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john can't be serious..... feigning an inability to understand the very basic, fundamental legal concept of the "reasonableness" standard?
the reasonable person standard
the reasonable person standard
06-24-12, 04:54 PM
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Hagen, you are apparently puzzled by my statement that Bek is motivated by fear of upsetting motorists. Here are some American facts that are probably unknown to you. Motorists control traffic law. In California, if the California Highway Patrol doesn't like a traffic-law proposal, it has almost no chance of passing. Years ago, when there was real possibility of getting a state-sponsored cyclist safety training program, it was killed by the CHP because it was too complicated for a CHP officer to insert into his 10-minute school presentations as Officer Friendly. Also, in many states governments of cities and counties have the legal power to override state traffic law, and this gets used far too frequently to discriminate against cyclists.
Therefore, there is some reason to fear that if cyclists do not behave as motorists want them to behave, shall we say as Bek urges us to behave, they will enact even worse laws than we have at present. Bek obviously thinks so, but he also has other reasons for his actions. I do not think that this is likely to occur at a state level, because it would raise far too much opposition. If it occurs at a smaller level, then, as has happened, that local area gets a bad reputation which it ends up wishing it hadn't attracted.
Therefore, there is some reason to fear that if cyclists do not behave as motorists want them to behave, shall we say as Bek urges us to behave, they will enact even worse laws than we have at present. Bek obviously thinks so, but he also has other reasons for his actions. I do not think that this is likely to occur at a state level, because it would raise far too much opposition. If it occurs at a smaller level, then, as has happened, that local area gets a bad reputation which it ends up wishing it hadn't attracted.
06-24-12, 05:42 PM
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No, Bek, I understand the reasonable man standard better than you do. The reasonable man is one who considers the facts and the consequences and makes a reasonable decision thereto. The reasonable man is definitely not the average man. In short, the reasonable man must be able, if asked, to provide the facts and the reasoning that supports his decision as to what is reasonable.
that's not the reasonable man standard at all!Hilarious!
from, and with credit to wikipedia
Originally Posted by wikipedia
The reasonable person is also a standard that holds: each person owes a duty to behave as a reasonable person would under the same or similar circumstances.
A bicyclist is allowed to avoid a trash can in the road. However, riding next to the center line to avoid the potential of encountering a trash can fails the reasonable person standard.
A more nuanced example, and one addressing the concerns in the original post - a rider can ride well away from the edge when reasonably necessary when riding in a narrow lane. However, a rider still needs a compelling, 'reasonable' cause to be positioned at the center line of a 55mph two lane highway.
Bicyclists have a duty to be reasonable in their road position.
Last edited by Bekologist; 06-24-12 at 06:49 PM.