juvela

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Original bar would have been 3TTT Gran Prix. Centre section of bar and clamp of stem are 26.0mm size.

If drive chain which came with cycle is Everest brand it is likely original.

Currently thinking 1963-67 for a date window.

It appears there is no lubrication port on the bottom bracket shell. Is this correct?

If you have not done so already you may wish to visit the Condorino web site. It is mainly about the Legnano badge but has some information on other Bozzi badges as well. It gets into parts suppliers employed by the manufacturer and shows fittings examples from different eras.

https://condorino.com/

3TTT Gran Prix entries at VB -

https://velobase.com/ViewComponent.as...m=102&AbsPos=0

https://velobase.com/ViewComponent.as...=112&AbsPos=18

https://velobase.com/ViewComponent.as...=112&AbsPos=19

On quality model bicycles Bozzi employed Ambrosio Champion stems and bars through ~1962, 3TTT Gran Prix ~1963-70, first generation Record ~1971-73 & second generation Record beginning ~1974.

Hope this helps you a bit.

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SJX426 

Can't speak to the transfers of the age on your frame. The '83 Colnago was dunked in OA bath for 24 hours with no impact to paint or transfers. Remarkable difference, highly recommended.

P7070952, on Flickr

P9161264, on Flickr

juvela

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Gotta luv those 62/d's!


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vintagerando

Thanks @SJX426 for the info and photos

3alarmer 

...it appears you now have a direction.

Some observations on Evapo-Rust and on OA baths. Both are dependent on warmer temperatures to work more quickly, and certainly OA is not something you want to be using indoors. So since we're getting on into fall and winter now, you might want to time this so you don't end up doing it at the wrong time of year.

As @juvela has already said, you need to appreciate how much rust is probably accumulated on the inside surfaces of the frame, if there's that much corrosion on the outside. I think what happens is that these olde bikes get stuck in an unheated garage or shed, and as they heat and cool, the moisture in the air condenses on the surfaces (interior and exterior). And depending on the relative humidity and temps in your location, over the years everything gets pretty crusty. So either complete submersion in OA solution (OA is cheap), or some people have had success using a large, heavy duty plastic bag, inserting the frame and fork, and then using bricks and other stuff to arrange the bag so the Evapo-Rust (not cheap) goes inside the frame tubes and stays.

I've done both, and can't really say I prefer one over the other. The OA is more obnoxious to use, and wear gloves because it gets absorbed through the skin. OA crystalizes in the kidneys with bad results. Also, youi need to neutralize it with baking soda or another base before you dispose of the liquid when you're done. It's a better operation if you're doing more than one frame at a time. But you are not.

I certainly understand the preservationist aesthetic in bike restoration. I have a friend here, Jack, who is unsatisfied if his bikes don't have the original tyres on them when he gets them.

I can only thank Jack for eventually selling some of them to me (we ride the same size). I suspect I put a lot more miles on them than did he. But it's a big ol'world, and everyone has his own vision of what makes him happy in this hobby.

It occurs to me that with a Frejus that old, you might want to check your frame tubing diameters. It's remotely possible that those newer Campy parts you were thinking of using have clamps that won't fit your frame tubing, but it's a quick and easy job to measure. And if you're willing to clear coat and treat the frame interior after you get the rust under control, you ought to be good to go for quite a while. It helps if you treat a project like this one as a long term project, with no clear ideas on turnaround. I think it took me well over a year to get that Carlton Flyer sorted out, and it had no rust issues to speak of.

juvela

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+ umpteen 3alarmer!

wonderful post with great information.

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minor revision -

in reviewing the pictures it dawned on me dull "braine" that the Record front mech is second generation and is paired with the correct cable guide for such a mech. this eliminates roughly the 1964-65 time as a possible nativity. need to move me estimate to the ~1967-68 time. shall look forward to reading results of the locknut exhumation.


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BlueDevil63 

Sorry if I missed anything but this bike can probably be pretty accurately dated from the serial number, which I can't quite make out from the pictures. It appears very, very similar to my 1960 shown here for reference but I would guess a few years later due to the top tube cable clamps rather than the brazed on under tube guides.

vintagerando

The locknut on the wheels with the matching Mavic stickers reads "68".
So, if these were the original wheels, 1968 would be the year. But, the original owner said he crashed the bike. As I remember, the original owner said, " I needed a new fork and wheel." So, I am not sure how the other set of wheels with mismatched rims fits into the story. The other "set" has on Mavic and on Weltmeister/Scheeren wheel. So, I guess I will need to take a look at the locknuts on the other two wheels. The info I got from the original owner was from his memories of approx. 50 years ago. As I know now, the original owner was mistaken when he told me he bought the Peugeot new "years before the Frejus". The Peugeot dates from 1968, so I think he was off on that info.

3alarmer 

...have you looked for and posted the serial number ?

FREJUS
Bicycle Frame serial numbers
Placed in ascending serial number order....

BlueDevil63 

It looks to me from the pictures like 1962 L which would place it around late 60s to very early 70s.

vintagerando

There is a lubrication port on the bottom bracket and the headtube.

vintagerando

Follow up to the question from @juvela, the second set of wheels have locknuts (Campy) stamped "67".

Slightspeed

My '64 Legnano has a similar lineage as your Frejus. I got mine new and still ride it. I can't believe an original owner would let the bike get as bad as the one you found. Mine has a few battle scars as does the rider, and the paint is less than paper thin in places, but original, as is the chrome. Interesting that the bottle carrier looks the same. It's not the one I raced with, I had a double bottle Caloric sheet metal holder and bottles. This one came along a few years later. My stem and bars were Ambrosio, with the bars being "Legnano" branded. Its unfortunate that the bottle clamp covers the branded logo - poor product placement. I reluctantly replaced the stem with a Nitto to get longer vertical extension. Back in the day there was more bike and less me. Here's an action shot of the bottle holder and bars, and another of my survivor Legnano. The crank, though old Campy, is not original, I raced with a 53/45 that the old legs don't like now, and the wheels are replacement Ebay clinchers. Best of luck with yours!

juvela

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suspect those aluminum bottles & their holder may have been Coloral -

https://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=04E5DA50-45B8-49A7-9BF5-43702EF2DE23&Enum=103&AbsPos=244

https://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=99238CF3-89E4-444F-97D5-1EF12C4F55E6&Enum=103&AbsPos=248

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1964 a transition year from Ambrosio Champion to 3TTT Gran Prix: old stocks being used up before new stocks gotten into. machines departed Bozzi works with both types.

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bottle cage of subject machine a T.A. Ref. 213 -



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reassembly of fork/headset/stem -

original fork and Record headset would have been Italian thread

because steerer of replacement fork NERVOR you will want to check its diameter & thread

thread of headset locknut and adjustable race are marked on the underside

if steerer metric stem may have been taken down to fit

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Slightspeed

Right, Caloral, I guess that was a senior moment typo. Here's a pic from back in the day, around 1965. We used two bottles for long races, on training rides, the second bottle holder worked for a spare tubular. Good times. The bar mount holder I use now looks like the TA in the brochure, but has a red plastic triangle spacer on the bottom. Sorry to be drifting off topic.

juvela

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The caps for those bottles seem to be "hens' teeth" at the "pre-owned" level. They are missing on every one of the examples have come across!

Quite a selection of colours were offered BITD; both for the bottles and for the holders.

They always remind me of a set of anodised aluminum tumblers my folks had when I was growing up in the 1950's.

This set is "Zephyr" brand - genuine vintage -



Announcer from The Outer Limits - "We now return control of your set to you."

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vintagerando

I was wondering if you could clarify a step when using OA. Lets say you are using it on a component. What do you do after you remove it from the bath? Wash with Water? Please see my other post here.


Oxalic Acid: parts and frame/questions

3alarmer 

...what I have done in the past is to toss the component in a bucket full of water. Let it soak for a few minutes, then rinse with a stream from a hose outdoors.
If it's something like a derailleur, I then either disassemble the cage part and lube the pulley wheels on reassembly, or if a front one, lube the pivot points with a spray lubricant.

Hubs, obviously, need to be disassembled and reassembled with fresh grease. It just depends on the components. Baking soda is cheap in bulk bags at Costco, if you're worried about neutralizing the acid, but all I've ever used is copious amounts of fresh water and fresh oil/grease/dry lube on exterior parts. As mentioned before, don't stick your bare hands anywhere near OA, because it is absorbed through the skin and ends up in your kidneys, where it can crystallize and cause issues. It's worth paying the price for some Evapo Rust if you are only doing some components, because it's pretty much non toxic and easier to deal with. But if you're mixing up some OA to do the frame and fork anyway, it's a waste of money to buy the stuff.

juvela

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Thank you for the response.

Have long thought that Bozzi must have gotten an excellent buy on some shells with the threaded hole to take a lubrication fitting back in the day and so purchased a huge supply. For they continued to exhibit on product departing the officine long after their use had been discontinued by most other cycle manufacturers.

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Wileyone 

I agree original paint does add value. But I would certainly want to see how deep that rust goes. There is a big difference between patina and a rusty bicycle.

Wildwood 

Yeah, agree.

Re-reading my words, I would prefer the expression - 'you can never go back'.
Try to clean up the frame with __________, then see what ya got.
Maybe, strip and repaint. Re-decal?
Or, …..good touch-up techniques.
Some owners clearcoat to preserve decals.

Some owners are clean-bike people and for that bike, paint cleaning followed with several coats of quality wax (maintained) may be all that's needed.

cudak888 

I'd give it a good polish and perhaps dunk the headtube in oxalic acid just to get some of the worst rust off the headlugs. Might want to go over the bare metal spots afterwards with clear nail polish just to prevent it from rusting again.

Polished paint with some replacement top tube cable clamps and accessory clamps should help offset some of the worst cosmetic issues on the top tube and help it to look its best when done.

-Kurt

vintagerando

When you say "paint cleaning", how would I go about this for this approach? How would you attack the general filth and rusted areas outside of a total bath?
When you say "clearcoat" do you mean some product that is from an aerosol can or something applied by hand?

vintagerando

It sounds like your approach is similar to @Wildwood post. So, how would I "polish" the paint, and clean the flaking paint without going the route of a complete immersion of the frame? Use a car wax? Use a brush with nylon and hit the worst spots? Then rub in a product by hand? Not sure I understand this approach. It sounds less extreme than a total bath, just not sure how to do it.

3alarmer