What makes a wheel fast?
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#29
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Even for races I'll use the Bastognes because the accelerate much easier. I use a lot of my reserves accelerating hard to counter attacks and just get out of a corner. I used my aero wheels for a few weeks but got totally shelled because the third or fourth super hard acceleration just killed me.
(When I used aero tubulars which are lighter and more aero than my clinchers, I did fine.)
So until you go really fast in a group (25-27 mph avg speed) heavy aero wheels seem to be a disadvantage. A steady state 25 mph to me screams aero wheel. Jumpy races which average 25-27+ mph scream aero tubulars.
The Bontragers you mention are carbon rimmed clinchers. They're extremely light. They will spin up very quickly, allowing you to accelerate with low perceived effort. If you don't use them all the time they'll feel really, really fast when you do use them. Until you hit about 35-40 mph. That's when they'll feel pretty sloggy. Aero wheels really come into play over 30 mph, and really at 35+ mph. Those slight downgrades when you want to move up in the group and the group is going 35-40 mph... aero wheels really help. Me, anyway, they help me.
(When I used aero tubulars which are lighter and more aero than my clinchers, I did fine.)
So until you go really fast in a group (25-27 mph avg speed) heavy aero wheels seem to be a disadvantage. A steady state 25 mph to me screams aero wheel. Jumpy races which average 25-27+ mph scream aero tubulars.
The Bontragers you mention are carbon rimmed clinchers. They're extremely light. They will spin up very quickly, allowing you to accelerate with low perceived effort. If you don't use them all the time they'll feel really, really fast when you do use them. Until you hit about 35-40 mph. That's when they'll feel pretty sloggy. Aero wheels really come into play over 30 mph, and really at 35+ mph. Those slight downgrades when you want to move up in the group and the group is going 35-40 mph... aero wheels really help. Me, anyway, they help me.
Like this race back in August:
#30
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There's lots of research on latex tubes online:
https://www.competitivecyclist.com/re...-tube_435.html
https://www.competitivecyclist.com/re...-tube_435.html
"..in the lab should experience latex resulting in a reduction of rolling resistance from 1.4-5.6w. Rolling resistance should be higher on the road, and thus the savings greater. The cost of rolling resistance on the road could be 50w or more for a 200-pound person. Latex tubes can reduce that cost by 10-20%. "
10% of 50W is 5W, 20% of 50W is 10W === how did you get 20W out of that math, you should at very best use low end as real.
Next:
"We pumped up the tires and rode. We didn't notice the tubes making a performance difference, ... saving even 5w would be hard to measure on the road."
Enough said. All latex tubes will do for you as increase the probability you will get a flat.
#31
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I think half the time he just steals stuff from that Sprinter della Casa blog
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#32
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Everybody loves to make fun of posters that comment on equipment making them better. Yet most riders pursue this very goal. What gives??
Oh, and yes when I get the money together for Rob to build me a set of wheels I do expect to see improvement. Otherwise why spend the money??
Oh, and yes when I get the money together for Rob to build me a set of wheels I do expect to see improvement. Otherwise why spend the money??
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#33
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Everybody loves to make fun of posters that comment on equipment making them better. Yet most riders pursue this very goal. What gives??
Oh, and yes when I get the money together for Rob to build me a set of wheels I do expect to see improvement. Otherwise why spend the money??
Oh, and yes when I get the money together for Rob to build me a set of wheels I do expect to see improvement. Otherwise why spend the money??
It isn't a matter of making fun of. A very large percentage of these "My xxxxx equipment did xxxxxx miracle" are just not realistic. This is an internet forum, people come in read this and make the assumption it is true. The majority of it simply is not, why allow people to be misled? Further more shouldn't the origin of the information be guided to the truth?
Do you really expect to see an impressive difference from buying new wheels? Unless the wheels you currently ride have siezed bearings, are 20 lbs a piece, are badly warped, or out of round, you simply will notice a marginal or barely detectable difference. The bike may handle better, it may accelerate faster, but seriously... How much? How much of that do you think will actual translate to a big difference?
The real difference is the athlete, training, hard work, period.
If you look at my training data, my 20 yr old, 25 lb, Al frame beater is undetectable from my new 14 lb, top end Carbon. Sure they feel different, sure the newer one shifts like butter, feels great riding, but it is me on both, so MY data is the same plus or minus 2 to 5% depending on the day.
#34
fuggitivo solitario
Everybody loves to make fun of posters that comment on equipment making them better. Yet most riders pursue this very goal. What gives??
Oh, and yes when I get the money together for Rob to build me a set of wheels I do expect to see improvement. Otherwise why spend the money??
Oh, and yes when I get the money together for Rob to build me a set of wheels I do expect to see improvement. Otherwise why spend the money??
improvement is not the same as improving speed. Why did i pick psimet? well, let's see: it's relatively light, BOMBPROOF, made using quality materials by a quality guy. Why are these improvements? Well, because for training, i rack up quite a bit of miles, and i'd like to be able to use quality wheels for at least a few seasons. The lightness is just the icing on the cake, but not the main goal itself.
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Makes the rest of us look bad
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#38
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It isn't a matter of making fun of. A very large percentage of these "My xxxxx equipment did xxxxxx miracle" are just not realistic. This is an internet forum, people come in read this and make the assumption it is true. The majority of it simply is not, why allow people to be misled? Further more shouldn't the origin of the information be guided to the truth?
Do you really expect to see an impressive difference from buying new wheels? Unless the wheels you currently ride have siezed bearings, are 20 lbs a piece, are badly warped, or out of round, you simply will notice a marginal or barely detectable difference. The bike may handle better, it may accelerate faster, but seriously... How much? How much of that do you think will actual translate to a big difference?
The real difference is the athlete, training, hard work, period.
If you look at my training data, my 20 yr old, 25 lb, Al frame beater is undetectable from my new 14 lb, top end Carbon. Sure they feel different, sure the newer one shifts like butter, feels great riding, but it is me on both, so MY data is the same plus or minus 2 to 5% depending on the day.
Do you really expect to see an impressive difference from buying new wheels? Unless the wheels you currently ride have siezed bearings, are 20 lbs a piece, are badly warped, or out of round, you simply will notice a marginal or barely detectable difference. The bike may handle better, it may accelerate faster, but seriously... How much? How much of that do you think will actual translate to a big difference?
The real difference is the athlete, training, hard work, period.
If you look at my training data, my 20 yr old, 25 lb, Al frame beater is undetectable from my new 14 lb, top end Carbon. Sure they feel different, sure the newer one shifts like butter, feels great riding, but it is me on both, so MY data is the same plus or minus 2 to 5% depending on the day.
So, I'm not saying equipment is the instant cure for all biking evils. But even if it gives you a placebo effect and makes you faster than hey I'm all for giving it credit. Who cares what really motivates you to go faster. If what you believe will make you faster does then why beat someone down for it?? If I give you a sugar pill, tell you it's pain meds, and your aches go away. Who cares that it was really your mind vs the pain pill??
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Steel is real...and comfy.
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#39
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where do i begin with the slew of logical errors here?
improvement is not the same as improving speed. Why did i pick psimet? well, let's see: it's relatively light, BOMBPROOF, made using quality materials by a quality guy. Why are these improvements? Well, because for training, i rack up quite a bit of miles, and i'd like to be able to use quality wheels for at least a few seasons. The lightness is just the icing on the cake, but not the main goal itself.
improvement is not the same as improving speed. Why did i pick psimet? well, let's see: it's relatively light, BOMBPROOF, made using quality materials by a quality guy. Why are these improvements? Well, because for training, i rack up quite a bit of miles, and i'd like to be able to use quality wheels for at least a few seasons. The lightness is just the icing on the cake, but not the main goal itself.
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#40
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So, I'm not saying equipment is the instant cure for all biking evils. But even if it gives you a placebo effect and makes you faster than hey I'm all for giving it credit. Who cares what really motivates you to go faster. If what you believe will make you faster does then why beat someone down for it?? If I give you a sugar pill, tell you it's pain meds, and your aches go away. Who cares that it was really your mind vs the pain pill??
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For detailed comparisons of wheel aerodynamics and stiffness: https://www.rouesartisanales.com/etudes
#43
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There is nothing wrong with thinking you're going faster because of your shiny new bike. But there are often new riders reading these forums and they should know that the only reason a new bike would make you measureably faster is because you changed your position. Of course, you could have gained the same speed by changing your position on the old bike as well.
#44
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There is nothing wrong with thinking you're going faster because of your shiny new bike. But there are often new riders reading these forums and they should know that the only reason a new bike would make you measureably faster is because you changed your position. Of course, you could have gained the same speed by changing your position on the old bike as well.
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#45
fuggitivo solitario
What errors, those are the prett much the exact same improvements I'm looking for from my Psimet wheels. I never said in my post that my improvement was equated to speed. Although with a good 1.5 lb or so improvement over the current heave Bontragers I'm running I'm certain the mountains are going to be easier and thus a bit faster going up. Coming down my old age and fear of mortality will be the limiting factor, LOL!!
I went from POS s!htmano 561 to a kinlin xr300 laced to white industry hubs with CX-ray spokes. The 561 goes out of true quite often, whereas the cx-ray only goes out of true when i really ding something (say a huge pothole at 28mph). Not to mention that it's hard to true the 561 b/c of the usage of internal nipples. As i said, the fact the kinlin front is about 120g light than the 561 is just icing.
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The crappy Brontrager RaceXLights on my rain bike will shortly be replaced (when the build is done). I do not expect to see a speed increase, however, I do expect it to be easier at the same pace. Those Bonti's just don't roll well.
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#47
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You are equating improvements to a wheelset with direct, measurable improvement in your speed, whereas improvements come in other ways, namely durability, ease of replacing damaged parts, etc.
I went from POS s!htmano 561 to a kinlin xr300 laced to white industry hubs with CX-ray spokes. The 561 goes out of true quite often, whereas the cx-ray only goes out of true when i really ding something (say a huge pothole at 28mph). Not to mention that it's hard to true the 561 b/c of the usage of internal nipples. As i said, the fact the kinlin front is about 120g light than the 561 is just icing.
I went from POS s!htmano 561 to a kinlin xr300 laced to white industry hubs with CX-ray spokes. The 561 goes out of true quite often, whereas the cx-ray only goes out of true when i really ding something (say a huge pothole at 28mph). Not to mention that it's hard to true the 561 b/c of the usage of internal nipples. As i said, the fact the kinlin front is about 120g light than the 561 is just icing.
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Steel is real...and comfy.
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Last edited by jamesdak; 12-23-10 at 01:24 PM.
#48
Peloton Shelter Dog
But at the end of the day it's mostly more because it makes you THINK it's faster, nice bike schwag is cool, and it's fun to gaze at it as your bike leans up against the Starbucks window.
#49
Peloton Shelter Dog
You really need to slow down and READ what I have written. I even agreed with you on the desired "improvement" qualities if you go back and look. Lightness was low or possibly not even mentioned when I emailed Rob for a quote. I certainly did not tell him I want them faster, LOL!! Like your last statement, I'll be going from a wheelset of around 2400+ grams to around 1600 grams, icing on the cake but it's the other attributes I asked for that matter to me. Oh and yes I do suspect they'll be faster accellerating and climbing. Not seeing where we disagree at all...
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Ahh, so maybe this is where some think I'm wrong (maybe I am!) You don't expect them to see an increased pace if you maintain your current effort?? I'm certain I can get lighter wheels up to speed faster, up hills/mountains faster, etc. Maybe I'm confusing people by saying speed when I really mean my avg speed over a distance thus my pace.
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