Bikepacking the new Touring?
#126
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 775
Bikes: Trek 970, Bianchi Volpe,Casati
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Liked 122 Times
in
87 Posts
Wonder
I wonder if any time in future they will make aerodynamic ,,carbon fiber,, panniers ,,ultra light ,,that need No rack to hook to your bike,, and charge like ,,$1000$ + for them.
#127
Senior Member
#128
Senior Member
It's only made to go so wide with that idea in mind, plus a lot of bikepacking bikes are in the "plus" or "fat" categories, and those bikes often have a little more space between the pedals. In practice I've found that it's probably possible to stuff a frame bag to the point where it bulges and brushes the crank, but it's easily noticed and fixed by redistributing your gear.
#129
Partially Sane.
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Sunny Sacramento.
Posts: 3,559
Bikes: Soma Saga, pre-disc
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 972 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 643 Times
in
468 Posts
See? That's exactly what I was talking about. Yesterday, I found a perfectly good 25' Stanley tape measure, on the side of the road. But I couldn't justify carrying the extra weight, or losing the storage space, so I sat it on a guard rail for some lucky dog to find. 😉
#130
2-Wheeled Fool
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,346
Bikes: Surly Ogre, Brompton
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1385 Post(s)
Liked 677 Times
in
457 Posts
I know, right! I can see them in my mind's eye. They'd be a lot like what we'd find on a touring motorcycle, but narrower, smaller, and lighter weight. I'll wager that CF bags like this would - if properly constructed, and well-engineered - be as light as fabric panniers. It would be so nice to have a lock on each one!
#131
Senior Member
#132
The name is the current fashion. I'm not sure what they called it 1898, but this is what it looked like.
fixed gear, no racks, thin tires, wool clothing, ties & knickers!
fixed gear, no racks, thin tires, wool clothing, ties & knickers!
Last edited by BigAura; 04-19-18 at 10:30 AM.
#133
Partially Sane.
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Sunny Sacramento.
Posts: 3,559
Bikes: Soma Saga, pre-disc
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 972 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 643 Times
in
468 Posts
I kinda wish knickers would become cool again. I can't even guess how many pants legs I've mangled over the years. 🙄
#134
FLIR Kitten to 0.05C
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 5,331
Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked 406 Times
in
254 Posts
Depends on how wide your hips and gate are....also how stuffed the frame bag is.
If I have a water bottle not quite fully vertical in a seat-tube cage, my legs will brush it enough to be annoying.
#135
cyclotourist
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: calgary, canada
Posts: 1,470
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 443 Post(s)
Liked 205 Times
in
130 Posts
Looks like we have the technology for a carbon everything bikepacking bike. I am waiting for somebody to put the whole thing together and tell us all about it.
#136
Senior Member
I should add again that I havent used a frame bag, am only going from the few people I know that use them.
#137
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,150
Bikes: 2013 Surly Disc Trucker, 2004 Novara Randonee , old fixie , etc
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 671 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 49 Times
in
43 Posts
My knees can bump into water bottles & occasionally even into the top tube. I'd guess most frame bag users wouldn't have bought one if they already had that problem.
#138
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,411
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6242 Post(s)
Liked 4,255 Times
in
2,386 Posts
No, I don't have scientific data to back it up. But neither does the Cycle About post. He has data, sure, but it isn't complete. It's an interesting result but it isn't definitive since we don't know the variance. You can't draw conclusions from flawed data...well, you can but they are likely the wrong conclusions.
I'm not saying that he's wrong only that we can't know without more information.
Well, no you aren't.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Last edited by cyccommute; 04-20-18 at 07:02 AM.
#140
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,411
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6242 Post(s)
Liked 4,255 Times
in
2,386 Posts
The original assertion that I did not agree with was that bikepackers carry more bags, and the extra bags offset the weight savings of not using a traditional pannier set-up. All the nitpicking aside, I just looked at my own gear and did some calculations. Used 500 grams for a rear rack and 360 for front, using your suggested rear rack and a commonly recommended front rack. Of course limiting the choices to aluminum racks definitely skews the results given that steel racks also seem popular among the 4-pannier crowd and are considerably heavier.
I think what I missed was what you are expressing as absolutes are straight-up opinions, and opinions I don't share. I still prefer panniers when and where they are practical, but I wouldn't call them far superior. I have really only taken one trip with no rear rack at all, but that trip was around 400 miles long and involved no terrain that I couldn't have managed with panniers, and still if I had it to do over, I'd make no special effort to bring my rack and pannier set-up because the bikepacking gear was fine.
For longer trips, I carry more stuff. Like soap and a towel for showering, a razor and stuff for cooking food. Freeze-dried is too expensive to eat for weeks on end and who want too eat it that often? I have also found through long experience that I need the extra room that panniers offer because I need to carry around 3 days of food with me most of the time...even when road touring. I've been in far too many places around the US where if I don't, I'm going to add a 20 mile round trip to the nearest grocery store to a 50, 60, or 70 mile day.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#141
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,411
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6242 Post(s)
Liked 4,255 Times
in
2,386 Posts
There are places where removing the bags comes in very handy. I don't often leave camp after I've made it but on rare occasion, I need to stock up and/or make a grocery run. I try to got to grocery stores during the day when I find one along the way but occasionally that doesn't work out. For example, at Harper's Ferry, I knew that I would be riding along the C&O where there are few grocery stores so I rode to one. I didn't what to carry everything with me so I left most of the bags (and their contents at the campsite.
Harper's Ferry also presented a unique problem that I've never encountered before...a spiral stair.
IMGP1106 by Stuart Black, on Flickr
a steep spiral stair
2015-05-20 14.52.01 by Stuart Black, on Flickr
and a very tight one
2015-05-20 14.55.21 by Stuart Black, on Flickr
I foolishly muscled the fully loaded bike up that stair in the evening when I went across but when I came back, I unloaded the bike and carried everything down the stair. With regular panniers, I just grab the handle and the panniers come off. With a bikepacking bag, the removal and installation is more involved. And they don't have all the convenient handles.
And before people go saying "the bikepacking load would have been lighter", yes, but it's not zero weight. Pushing a bike up or down those stairs is bad enough. Any extra weight makes it worse. And the bike is easier to carry with the top tube open so that would mean removal of at least the seat post bag and any frame bag which are both more complicated than panniers.
That's kind of what I've been saying all along. I have said, repeatedly, that any aerodynamic differences are minimal.
Again, I would agree for off-road riding. I would go that route if I were to do the Great Divide Trail or any off-road adventure. I have gone that route after trying panniers and a couple of trailers. But for on-road touring, I feel I'm already suffering enough. I'm not totally comfortable when bicycle touring but I don't feel the need to go out of my way to make it worse.
Harper's Ferry also presented a unique problem that I've never encountered before...a spiral stair.
IMGP1106 by Stuart Black, on Flickr
a steep spiral stair
2015-05-20 14.52.01 by Stuart Black, on Flickr
and a very tight one
2015-05-20 14.55.21 by Stuart Black, on Flickr
I foolishly muscled the fully loaded bike up that stair in the evening when I went across but when I came back, I unloaded the bike and carried everything down the stair. With regular panniers, I just grab the handle and the panniers come off. With a bikepacking bag, the removal and installation is more involved. And they don't have all the convenient handles.
And before people go saying "the bikepacking load would have been lighter", yes, but it's not zero weight. Pushing a bike up or down those stairs is bad enough. Any extra weight makes it worse. And the bike is easier to carry with the top tube open so that would mean removal of at least the seat post bag and any frame bag which are both more complicated than panniers.
That's kind of what I've been saying all along. I have said, repeatedly, that any aerodynamic differences are minimal.
Again, I would agree for off-road riding. I would go that route if I were to do the Great Divide Trail or any off-road adventure. I have gone that route after trying panniers and a couple of trailers. But for on-road touring, I feel I'm already suffering enough. I'm not totally comfortable when bicycle touring but I don't feel the need to go out of my way to make it worse.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#142
Senior Member
Look at my other posts. I already addressed this. Steel racks that are popular with the 4-pannier (or 2 pannier) crowd aren't "considerably heavier". They aren't heavier at all. The Blackburn EX weighs the same as the Tubus Cargo and the Tubus Cargo is about the heaviest of the Tubus racks.
Okay. That's your opinion. Why is your opinion "better" than mine?
You seem to have missed that I, too, have used both setups. I do find the bikepacking bags to be miserable by comparison but they are less miserable for their intended use than panniers are and far less miserable than a trailer. However, on a smooth road or even on a smooth packed railtrail, panniers are far superior...even for a light load.
Because of the minimalist character of "bikepacking", I don't carry any of the stuff I need for personal hygiene other than a tooth brush. I carry freeze-dried meals and then only about 3 days worth. I carry few if any comfort items and I carry minimal...well, more minimal than road touring...electronics. I don't carry anything that needs to be plugged in nor the cords to do so. It's spartan and meant to be that way.
For longer trips, I carry more stuff. Like soap and a towel for showering, a razor and stuff for cooking food. Freeze-dried is too expensive to eat for weeks on end and who want too eat it that often? I have also found through long experience that I need the extra room that panniers offer because I need to carry around 3 days of food with me most of the time...even when road touring. I've been in far too many places around the US where if I don't, I'm going to add a 20 mile round trip to the nearest grocery store to a 50, 60, or 70 mile day.
For longer trips, I carry more stuff. Like soap and a towel for showering, a razor and stuff for cooking food. Freeze-dried is too expensive to eat for weeks on end and who want too eat it that often? I have also found through long experience that I need the extra room that panniers offer because I need to carry around 3 days of food with me most of the time...even when road touring. I've been in far too many places around the US where if I don't, I'm going to add a 20 mile round trip to the nearest grocery store to a 50, 60, or 70 mile day.
#144
Senior Member
Make your own bags ¿ good idea
2 racks, 4 panniers = 10 pounds
bob trailer = 12 pounds
bike packing home made gear = 3 pounds
What you all missed.
Panniers dont fit on trails, my low rider rack lasted exactly 3 miles,
2 miles to get to a trail, and 1 mile to bump into a rock and break the rack
2 racks, 4 panniers = 10 pounds
bob trailer = 12 pounds
bike packing home made gear = 3 pounds
What you all missed.
Panniers dont fit on trails, my low rider rack lasted exactly 3 miles,
2 miles to get to a trail, and 1 mile to bump into a rock and break the rack
#145
The reality is low-riders don't work well in many situations including cities, where low-riding-panniers are apt to hit curbs. I'm thinking in a few years low-riders will be be out-of-fashion.
#146
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: San Diego
Posts: 708
Bikes: 1978 Bruce Gordon, 1977 Lippy, 199? Lippy tandem, Bike Friday NWT, 1982 Trek 720, 2012 Rivendell Atlantis, 1983 Bianchi Specialissima?
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Liked 178 Times
in
109 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisx
Panniers dont fit on trails, my low rider rack lasted exactly 3 miles,
2 miles to get to a trail, and 1 mile to bump into a rock and break the rack
The reality is low-riders don't work well in many situations including cities, where low-riding-panniers are apt to hit curbs. I'm thinking in a few years low-riders will be be out-of-fashion
I don’t think anyone has suggested one doesn’t have to look where one is going when operating a vehicle. Isn’t this kinda like keeping your inside pedal up when cornering? In the down position, my pedals are closer to the ground than a lowrider pannier and only marginally higher when horizontal.
Originally Posted by chrisx
Panniers dont fit on trails, my low rider rack lasted exactly 3 miles,
2 miles to get to a trail, and 1 mile to bump into a rock and break the rack
The reality is low-riders don't work well in many situations including cities, where low-riding-panniers are apt to hit curbs. I'm thinking in a few years low-riders will be be out-of-fashion
I don’t think anyone has suggested one doesn’t have to look where one is going when operating a vehicle. Isn’t this kinda like keeping your inside pedal up when cornering? In the down position, my pedals are closer to the ground than a lowrider pannier and only marginally higher when horizontal.
#147
Pedals move and can be positioned to avoid obstacles. Additionally they are much closer in vs. panniers. But I agree avoiding obstacles is the way to go.
#148
Senior Member
I just stumbled across this carbon fiber rear rack with matching bags. Looks pretty slick. Anyone have any further info on them, or seen them in person?
https://www.tailfin.cc/
https://www.tailfin.cc/
#149
Senior Member
same as my platform pedals (within 1/2"). bags have 16" ground clearance.
pedals have 5"/19" clearance.
front bags are smaller. (i don't have smaller bags or lowrider on hand to measure)
instead of lowrider, use an equivalent weight platform rack with top rails. in that
case you'll have the same width, but higher clearance than the rear.
(.......or just watch where you're going.)
#150
Senior Member
Well, sometimes that may be true but they'll work on many trails as long as they are not too narrow and gnarly. Back in 1991 I cycled the Coromandel Walkway in New Zealand to complete a road loop around the peninsula. I was on a touring bike with low riders on the front and high riders on the rear. Back then mountain bikes were the new thing and "bikepacking" was 20 years or more in the future. Also rode 2 weeks of MT Great Divide Trail with low riders. Had fun despite my inadequate gear!
https://outthere.kiwi/wp-content/upl...l-Walkway9.jpg
https://outthere.kiwi/coromandel-walkway/
https://outthere.kiwi/wp-content/upl...l-Walkway9.jpg
https://outthere.kiwi/coromandel-walkway/