Immersive waxing / it should be more popular
#1251
Fat n slow
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just gonna chime in here and comment again that there is a "middle way" when it comes to waxing - but one has to be OK with a little bit of grit on their bike and in the crock pot. doesn't bother me and I still don't hesitate to handle my drivetrain with bare hands. my methods involve zero inter-wax treatment, just the initial de-greasing of the factory wax. skimming through the thread, it seems like that's not even necessary either, which has me intrigued.
I don’t do any treating between waxes, just throw them back into the crock pot and away I go.
I have only had one instance of wax not holding up well on a ride and that was 4 hours in the rain during a gravel race. At the finish, the chain was completely stripped.
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#1252
Senior Member
..
As to wanting the wax to stay clean. It depends on the conditions one rides in. But I don't get why one would use a sacrificial cleaning wax when boiling water does the same thing but is a lot more care free. I prefer not to contaminate my main wax with salt so I boil my chains before I wax them.
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As to wanting the wax to stay clean. It depends on the conditions one rides in. But I don't get why one would use a sacrificial cleaning wax when boiling water does the same thing but is a lot more care free. I prefer not to contaminate my main wax with salt so I boil my chains before I wax them.
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#1253
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But seriously, no. Melting point of paraffin starts at 50 *C at the low end, and I would not ride at temperatures anywhere near that.
#1254
Senior Member
Dont get it? it said so in the post you replied to. I wouldn't clean the chain before waxing in the first place, unless it was very filthy and Id do it in molten wax if I had to do it. Why? it said so too. To not get it wet and having to dry it before waxing or have it boil off in the wax. Mind you, no one is twisting your arm, just sharing what I perceive as a much easier approach. Jump to 6min 17 sec in the video to see.
https://youtu.be/X-THvBCW1EU?t=377
https://youtu.be/X-THvBCW1EU?t=377
I'd be loathe to watch over two wax pots when I can just leave one water pot on full blast. Water also clears road salt better than molten wax.
#1255
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Water does dissolve salt better than paraffin. But if you remove the residual wax on the chain with odorless mineral spirits, any salt that had been on the surface of the wax would come off too.
#1256
Senior Member
A little water in the wax itself is no problem. A little water trapped within the chain before waxing deters wax adhesion and causes rust.
Why are you watching it at all? Why not use a $10 Crock Pot that does not have to be watched at all? And even if you cannot use a Crock Pot (or other slow cooker), how is watching two wax pots more difficult than watching a single wax pot?
Water does dissolve salt better than paraffin. But if you remove the residual wax on the chain with odorless mineral spirits, any salt that had been on the surface of the wax would come off too.
Why are you watching it at all? Why not use a $10 Crock Pot that does not have to be watched at all? And even if you cannot use a Crock Pot (or other slow cooker), how is watching two wax pots more difficult than watching a single wax pot?
Water does dissolve salt better than paraffin. But if you remove the residual wax on the chain with odorless mineral spirits, any salt that had been on the surface of the wax would come off too.
#1257
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I think at 70-80C the molten wax will evaporate any remaining water pretty quickly.
Have to say, I’m a mere 150km into this game and I’m absolutely sold. Chain was the cleanest part of the bike after today’s ride which was mostly dry but took us on a few wet roads.
Have to say, I’m a mere 150km into this game and I’m absolutely sold. Chain was the cleanest part of the bike after today’s ride which was mostly dry but took us on a few wet roads.
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#1258
Senior Member
Why are you watching it at all? Why not use a $10 Crock Pot that does not have to be watched at all? And even if you cannot use a Crock Pot (or other slow cooker), how is watching two wax pots more difficult than watching a single wax pot?
The reason I don't use a crock pot is that my wax has a melting point of over 90 degrees celsius. A crock pot won't keep the surface molten especially since my garage isn't heated.
Water does dissolve salt better than paraffin. But if you remove the residual wax on the chain with odorless mineral spirits, any salt that had been on the surface of the wax would come off too.
I also don't like using solvents if I can help it.
#1259
Senior Member
However any water on a chain will quite readily flow off the chain and to the bottom of the pot below the wax, where it'll remain until you remove the puck and pour out the water.
#1260
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#1261
Senior Member
Maybe trolls have no clothes to wash? haha!
#1262
Senior Member
Dont get it? it said so in the post you replied to. I wouldn't clean the chain before waxing in the first place, unless it was very filthy and Id do it in molten wax if I had to do it. Why? it said so too. To not get it wet and having to dry it before waxing or have it boil off in the wax. Mind you, no one is twisting your arm, just sharing what I perceive as a much easier approach. Jump to 6min 17 sec in the video to see.
https://youtu.be/X-THvBCW1EU?t=377
https://youtu.be/X-THvBCW1EU?t=377
I think I'm going to give this a try. Living in the desert, my main concerns are sand and grit more than rust and oils. One thing I never really liked about cleaning and lubing my chains before is I always felt the lubrication made for a opportune place for grit and sand to adhere. This looks like it has immense benefits in my climate. Going to give it a try!
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#1263
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That is not my experience. I had a Shimano 105 (CN-HG600) which I rinsed out with boiling water, then blow dry with an air compressor. There were little spots with surface rust by the time I was done with the blow drying (in a matter of minutes).
I don't think so. Water is a polar molecule, which would tend to adhere to metal more than a non-polar molecule like OMS or wax. Thus, a slight amount of water would remain within the chain.
I understand about low thermal capacity and flammability of wax. I was just not sure that there is much difference between watching one pot vs. two pots of the same material.
As I noted above (in post #1240), a Crock Pot (the actual brand, not the genericized term that some people use to refer to all slow cookers) would maintain a temperature of 98 *C.
As noted above, salt does not dissolve in OMS. But if one has waxed a chain properly to begin with, any road salt would be on the surface of the wax, such that the salt would also come off when you use OMS to remove the wax.
Some slight amount of water would remain within the chain because water is polar while wax and OMS are not.
Yes, when the water is on the surface. But in paraffin, much of the heavier water would sink below the wax.
As noted above, salt does not dissolve in OMS. But if one has waxed a chain properly to begin with, any road salt would be on the surface of the wax, such that the salt would also come off when you use OMS to remove the wax.
Yes, when the water is on the surface. But in paraffin, much of the heavier water would sink below the wax.
Last edited by SoSmellyAir; 03-16-24 at 03:26 PM.
#1264
Senior Member
Thanks for posting this video. I was hoping to find a video link but that's a lot of pages to go through. Just lucky timing on my part, I guess.
I think I'm going to give this a try. Living in the desert, my main concerns are sand and grit more than rust and oils. One thing I never really liked about cleaning and lubing my chains before is I always felt the lubrication made for a opportune place for grit and sand to adhere. This looks like it has immense benefits in my climate. Going to give it a try!
I think I'm going to give this a try. Living in the desert, my main concerns are sand and grit more than rust and oils. One thing I never really liked about cleaning and lubing my chains before is I always felt the lubrication made for a opportune place for grit and sand to adhere. This looks like it has immense benefits in my climate. Going to give it a try!
Dont do what he is doing. It was a an example Not to follow (IMO) ! haha :-)
Lots of other videos to watch. Apparently I'm on the fringe of waxing for not bothering to prep or clean chains before hot waxing If you care what I have to contribute go back and read my previous posts or do what ever feels right to you.
GP lama, on YT, did a wax video recently that made a lot os sense. - I dont care for "high end" wax products tho.
#1265
Senior Member
Oh, OK. Can you link to your posts? I'm seeing 51 pages on my end. That's a lot of scrolling! And what was it about that video you oppose? It sounded pretty reasonable to me. I was going to give it a try. Will watch your posted video next.
Thanks.
Thanks.
#1267
Method to My Madness
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Not sure about salt. California has hard water, so relatively high mineral content. This was a chain that had previously been degreased with a degreaser, and thereafter lubricated with Boeshield T-9, and I did not see any rust then. However, after the next round of degreaser and boiling water (to prepare for first wax attempt) there were a few minute spots of surface rust. So the waxing was put on hold, and the chain redone with Boeshield T-9. No long after there was a broken link and the chain was retired before it even hit the first wear measurement.
#1268
Senior Member
When exposed to atmosphere yes. However when under a layer of molten wax, the vapor pressure of water can overcome the hydrostatic pressure of wax only after temperature gets high enough or in most cases, over 100C.
You should maybe read a book sometime. Or try to learn something new. By being so sure about something you clearly know nothing about paints you as a fool. As mentioned above, water doesn't have enough vapor pressure to push through molten wax until temperatures go over 100C.
You should maybe read a book sometime. Or try to learn something new. By being so sure about something you clearly know nothing about paints you as a fool. As mentioned above, water doesn't have enough vapor pressure to push through molten wax until temperatures go over 100C.
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#1269
Senior Member
Having some alloying elements, like even a little chrome, will make it rust slower. A lot of chrome, like over 13%, and it's "stainless" steel, very corrosion resistant. Typical files don't rust instantly, due to the alloying elements added, not for corrosion resistance, but to increase hardness without becoming too brittle, as you get if all hardness comes from addition of carbon.
#1270
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Wow. Didn’t know the chemical process was that quick.
also - the lack of exposure to air ref evaporation makes sense. I seem to have got away with my first boiling water experiment (can’t see inside the rollers of course but the chain looks pristine), might get hold of something hydrocarbon for next time.
also - the lack of exposure to air ref evaporation makes sense. I seem to have got away with my first boiling water experiment (can’t see inside the rollers of course but the chain looks pristine), might get hold of something hydrocarbon for next time.
#1271
Senior Member
Wow. Didn’t know the chemical process was that quick.
also - the lack of exposure to air ref evaporation makes sense. I seem to have got away with my first boiling water experiment (can’t see inside the rollers of course but the chain looks pristine), might get hold of something hydrocarbon for next time.
also - the lack of exposure to air ref evaporation makes sense. I seem to have got away with my first boiling water experiment (can’t see inside the rollers of course but the chain looks pristine), might get hold of something hydrocarbon for next time.
Also, water can have some air in solution, which is how fish breath, they need water with air content. Boiling it takes it out of solution, at least according to my dad, who insisted on boiling water for his tea, he said it prevented foam on the surface, for that reason.
Last edited by Duragrouch; 03-17-24 at 03:12 AM.
#1272
Senior Member
I don't think so. Water is a polar molecule, which would tend to adhere to metal more than a non-polar molecule like OMS or wax. Thus, a slight amount of water would remain within the chain.
I tried cleaning a smaller waxing pot with boiling water, but after I was done there was still a thin wax surface on the pot, even at the bottom.
I tried leaving water at the bottom of a container whilst the wax solidified. After everything had cooled down, there was still a wax coating between the metal and water.
If the wax is 100C+ when wet chains are added, the chains will begin to bubble with the boiling water inside them. However with little agitation (or just by lifting a chain out from the wax and letting it sink in again) the bubbles stop coming from inside the chain and the originating point shifts to the bottom of the pot, which tells me that the water has flowed out from inside the chain and to he bottom of the container.
So it would seem that once wax is able to creep in to a surface previously occupied by water, that area is then permanently taken by wax. And wax being hydrophobic, water just slips away to a point of least resistance, ie. down.
Another thing that will have an effect is the sheer mass of wax vs. water. There is considerable wax flow and hydrostatic pressure vs. what the remaining water has to offer in opposition. So the water droplets can just be swept away after the chain is dropped in or lifted out or agitated in the wax.
There don't seem to be pooling points inside a chain where water could conceivably hide especially if the chain is agitated whilst in the wax. However I think the agitation isn't even necessary.
I understand about low thermal capacity and flammability of wax. I was just not sure that there is much difference between watching one pot vs. two pots of the same material.
As I noted above (in post #1240), a Crock Pot (the actual brand, not the genericized term that some people use to refer to all slow cookers) would maintain a temperature of 98 *C.
Perhaps it'll be different in the summer, but this has been a fairly cool winter and my crock pot can't keep up against -10 celsius with wax that has such a high melting point.
As noted above, salt does not dissolve in OMS. But if one has waxed a chain properly to begin with, any road salt would be on the surface of the wax, such that the salt would also come off when you use OMS to remove the wax.
Some slight amount of water would remain within the chain because water is polar while wax and OMS are not.
There are oil/water separators which rely on the fact that oil will stick to metal more readily than water. Wax isn't oil but molten wax has similar characteristics and will behave in a similar fashion.
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#1273
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Boiling water is going to raise the temperature of the steel to where it rusts much faster than room temperature. Of course you would get rust spots doing that. Most chemical reactions go much faster with heat.
#1274
Newbie
On a bike where I use teflon lubes and clean the chain with simple green and water, I finish with an aerosol chain cleaner to drive out the water quickly.
My plan for re-wax of a super messy chain would be similar—if I need to use boiling water to clear out the old gunk, the chain will be off the bike anyway and I can follow with denatured alcohol.
My plan for re-wax of a super messy chain would be similar—if I need to use boiling water to clear out the old gunk, the chain will be off the bike anyway and I can follow with denatured alcohol.
#1275
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On a bike where I use teflon lubes and clean the chain with simple green and water, I finish with an aerosol chain cleaner to drive out the water quickly.
My plan for re-wax of a super messy chain would be similar—if I need to use boiling water to clear out the old gunk, the chain will be off the bike anyway and I can follow with denatured alcohol.
My plan for re-wax of a super messy chain would be similar—if I need to use boiling water to clear out the old gunk, the chain will be off the bike anyway and I can follow with denatured alcohol.
Boiling water rusts steel.